Preamble

The House met at Half past Two o'Clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL

Read the Third time, and passed.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (NORWICH) BILL

Read a Second time, and committed.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (WALLASEY) BILL

Read a Second time, and committed.

Oral Answers to Questions — TRADE AND COMMERCE

Electricity Supply (Poles)

Major Digby: asked the President of the Board of Trade, how many poles complying with G.P.O. standards, are held in stock by the G.P.O., or by any other Department on its behalf; how many have been ordered for the use of the G.P.O., and if he will give similar figures for poles of equivalent quality available in this country to the electricity supply industry.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Belcher): Apart from poles issued but not yet erected, the number of which, of course, varies from day to day, the G.P.O. have about 140,000 poles in stock. The greater part of this stock is in sizes usable only by the G.P.O., and a considerable proportion is below the normal G.P.O. standard or has not yet been creosoted. No stocks are held by any other Department on behalf of the G.P.O. The only stocks held by the electricity supply industry are small

day to day working stocks. Of the 96,000 poles expected to be available for use this year, 45,000 have been allocated to the Electricity Commission. The G.P.O. will receive 37,000 poles due in the second half of the year.

Sir Waldron Smithers: Will the Parliamentary Secretary say what is the value of these poles per pole?

Mr. Belcher: I am afraid that I cannot give that information in reply to a supplementary question, but if the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question, I will do my best to answer it.

Mr. R. S. Hudson: Are there not a large number of poles, the lack of which is hindering agricultural production, and which are surplus to Air Ministry requirements, that could be made available for this purpose?

Mr. Belcher: So far as I am aware, that is not the case, but I am prepared to look into the matter.

Major Haughton: Would not a greater use of ferro-concrete poles ease the situation?

Mr. Belcher: That is another question, but I am prepared to look into all these matters.

Major Digby: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is satisfied, having regard to the importance of electricity supplies to the community, that sufficient priority is being given to the electricity supply industry in the allocation of poles, as compared with that accorded to the G.P.O.

Mr. Belcher: The allocation of supplies for 1946 has been made in consultation with the Departments concerned, including the Electricity Commission, and has been accepted by them.

Major Digby: Is the Parliamentary Secretary satisfied that the number of poles allocated to the electricity industry is sufficient, in view of the very great demand for the extension of electricity in the rural areas?

Mr. Belcher: I am satisfied that the allocation of poles to the Electricity Commission is fair. In so far as there is a shortage, we are doing our best to provide them with what they need, but we have to allocate as between different people.

Major Legge-Bourke: Can the hon. Gentleman say what proportion of the 96,000 poles, which are estimated to be coming in during the year, will be coming from Scandinavia?

Mr. Belcher: That is quite a different question.

Empire Rubber (Sale Negotiations)

Sir Basil Neven-Spence: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in the forthcoming negotiations for the sale of rubber from the Empire to the U.S.A., such negotiations are to be conducted by representatives of the rubber producing industry on the one side and rubber consuming industry on the other, or by Government officials.

Mr. Marquand (Secretary for Overseas Trade): Representatives of the United States Government are now in London

IMPORTS OF PRINCIPAL MATERIALS FROM THE UNITED STATES.


Description.
Average value per ton
Increase in average value.


1938.
January-April, 1946.






££
per cent.


Tobacco (unmanufactured)
…
…
…
154
315
105


Undressed fur skins (other than rabbit)
…
…
2,502
4,488
79


Raw Cotton
…
…
…
48
127
166


Sawn softwood
…
…
…
11·0
18·6
69


Crude petroleum
…
…
…
2·9
4·4
52


Sulphur
…
…
…
4·4
8·4
91

Newsprint (Allocation)

Mr. Bossom: asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of tons of paper exported in the most recent three months for which he has particulars; and how much was allotted to papers specialising in trade matters during the same period.

Mr. Belcher: Exports of all descriptions of paper and board and articles made therefrom for the three months February to April, 1946, amounted to 21,838 tons. Precise figure of the consumption of paper by newspapers and periodicals specialising in trade matters is not available, but I estimate that it would amount to 1,500 tons.

Mr. Bossom: Is not the Parliamentary Secretary aware that, owing to this ex-

discussing future arrangements for the purchase of rubber from the Far Eastern rubber producing territories with representatives of His Majesty's Government. In these discussions, I am assisted by representatives of the London registered rubber companies.

Raw Materials (Imports from U.S.A.)

Sir B. Neven-Spence: asked the President of the Board of Trade what are the present average prices of the four principal raw materials imported from the U.S.A. into the United Kingdom; what were the corresponding prices in 1938; and what is the difference in percentage in these prices.

Mr. Belcher: As the answer includes a number of figures I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following are the figures:

port, certain of our publishers are having to send their manuscripts to America, where they are printed and sent to our own Dominions? Would it not be more practicable to do this work here?

Mr. Belcher: It would be, if the supplies of paper were available, but they are not.

Mr. Bossom: Do not the figures, which the Parliamentary Secretary has given, show that there is enough paper, and that he is not using it for the right purposes?

Cotton Futures

Sir W. Smithers: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that the closing of the Liverpool Cotton Exchange has been instrumental in the reopening


of the Bremen cotton market; and what steps he proposes to take to prevent this business being lost to Britain.

Mr. Marquand: The facilities of the Exchange are being utilised by the military Government for the distribution of certain quantities of cotton which are being imported into Germany by the United States authorities for spinning in the American zone, but there is no question of the resumption of purchasing abroad on private account by members of the Bremen Cotton Exchange or of the reopening of that Exchange.

Sir W. Smithers: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the closing of the Liverpool Cotton Exchange has resulted in old established and valuable business being transferred to foreign countries, with a fatal loss of invisible exports to this country?

Mr. Marquand: All these questions were fully considered during the Debate, and I see no reason for a change of opinion.

Mr. Kirkwood: Is it not the case that this House decided, by an overwhelming majority, that this institution should be closed down?

Mr. Marples: Will the hon. Gentleman consider consulting members of the Liverpool Cotton Asociation to see whether the foreign business formerly done by the Liverpool Cotton Exchange could be saved to this country, and will he consider some method of doing this?

Mr. Marquand: That subject has been considered very thoroughly by the Liverpool Cotton Association, and I anticipate that the Lord President of the Council will be announcing the Government's decision on the matter before very long.

Utility Furniture

Major Legge-Bourke: asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that utility furniture purporting to be made of mahogany is in fact often only stained a colour similar to that of mahogany though the price charged is that of the genuine article; that oak tables sold as genuine have beech legs in many cases; and if he will take steps to prevent members of the public being exploited in this way.

Mr. Belcher: We have followed the accepted trade practice in describing the articles of furniture in the utility range according to the predominant timber, or veneer, used in the face surfaces. Other materials used are stained to match the predominant shade. Since the prices of these articles are related to detailed specifications prescribing the materials which may be used in their manufacture, the last part of the hon. and gallant Member's Question does not arise.

Major Legge-Bourke: Will the hon. Gentleman consider making some arrangements so that these items of furniture can be indelibly stamped with the types of wood which are incorporated in them?

Mr. Belcher: I foresee difficulties there, but I do not mind having a look at it.

Household Equipment (Rural Areas)

Lieut-Colonel Clifton-Brown: asked the President of the Board of Trade if a general issue of dockets will now be made to householders in rural areas who had evacuees billeted on them, to enable them to replenish household goods such as sheets, pillow cases and linoleum which are now worn out.

Mr. Belcher: No, Sir. While supplies are so short, I regret that I cannot see my way to extend the issue of priority dockets as the hon. and gallant Member suggests. Dockets are not issued for pillow cases which can be purchased without surrender of coupons.

Lieut.-Colonel Clifton-Brown: Can the Minister state if there is any hope in the near future of these people being able to get dockets for sheets and so on, as they are getting very short?

Mr. Belcher: We shall be able to relax the restrictions just as quickly as production catches up with demand.

Dustbins

Mr. Arthur Lewis: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the shortage of dustbins in West Ham, and Upton in particular; and what steps he proposes to take to overcome this shortage.

Mr. Belcher: I am aware that there has been a general shortage of dustbins due to a shortage of suitable raw materials. I am glad to say that supplies of these


materials have improved recently, and West Ham and Upton will get their share of the resulting increased production of dustbins.

Mr. Lewis: Is my hon. Friend aware that it is not a question of production but rather one of maldistribution, because in certain parts of North and West London there is an over abundance of dustbins, and could he get some of them directed to the East End?

Mr. Belcher: I can only suggest that my hon. Friend gives me the details of this maldistribution, and I will look into it.

Radio Valve Industry (Price Regulation)

Mr. A. Lewis: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received the report of the Central Price Regulation Committee on their inquiries into the radio valve industry; and when this report will be published.

Mr. Belcher: The draft report will be considered by the Central Price Regulation Committee on Tuesday, and I expect to have the final report shortly after. I will consider the question of its publication after I have received it.

Utility Wool Dress Cloth

Sir W. Smithers: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that the largest selling wool dress cloth comes in class 210A and is now sold 54 inches wide for three coupons a yard, and that, owing to in creases in costs and wages, manufacturers cannot continue this cloth at the price, which entails it going into four and a half coupons per yard, he will raise the specification for this cloth from 210A to 210B, for three coupons.

Mr. Belcher: The hon. Member is misinformed. The utility wool dress cloth of Specification No. 210A is not the largest selling of the utility wool dress cloths, forming less than 20 per cent, of the total output. Moreover, production of cloth No. 210A, far from decreasing, is in the current period some 140 per cent, in excess of production in the corresponding period a year ago. There is, therefore, no reason to make any change in the coupon arrangements.

Sir W. Smithers: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if this concession is not granted the public will pay four and a half coupons a yard for exactly the same cloth for which they have to give three coupons a yard, thus reducing the already meagre coupon allowance?

Mr. Belcher: No, Sir.

Sir W. Smithers: The hon. Gentleman does not know his job.

Clothing Coupons

Brigadier Low: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will authorise the necessary additional clothing coupons for men engaged as musical directors of orchestras.

Mr. Belcher: No, Sir. I sympathise with such people but they must look for relief to such increases as become possible in the basic ration.

Captain Marsden: asked the President of the Board of Trade if arrangements have been made to provide Dominion and Colonial troops visiting this country for the purpose of taking part in the Victory Parade on 8th June with the coupons necessary to purchase articles they desire to take back to their homes.

Mr. Belcher: No, Sir. I am sure that, in view of the shortage of clothes here, our visitors from the Empire will be content to purchase articles which are not rationed.

Captain Marsden: Has not the hon. Gentleman got it wrong? Is it not the case that the people of this country would wish visitors to take home with them some recollection of perhaps their first and only visit to this country?

Mr. Belcher: That is entirely a matter of opinion. My feeling is that the majority of the people of this country would prefer to keep here the clothes of which they are being deprived at the present time.

Mr. Butcher: Is it not a fact that the delegates who came here for the U.N.O. Conference were provided with coupons and, that being so, could not similar arrangements be made in this case?

Mr. Belcher: Arrangements are being, and will be, made to cover the needs of people who come from parts of the world


where the clothing usually worn is not suitable for the climate here.

Mr. Walkden: Can my hon. Friend say how many tens of thousands of coupons have been given away to visitors who come to see us for business, compassionate or surreptitious reasons? Will he stop giving away 90 coupons to anybody who comes to Britain?

Mr. Erroll: Has the hon. Gentleman considered the advertising value of letting these people take a few British articles back with them?

Mr. Belcher: The predominant consideration in my mind, and in the mind

The following list shows the number of new lactones, extensions and modernisations, exceeding 5,000 square feet, approved in each development area in 1946. together with the number of these on which building work was in progress at the end of April.


Development Area.
New Factories.
Extensions.
Conversions and adaptations of Existing Buildings.
Total
Building work in progress.


North Eastern
48
16
9
73
14


Scottish
61
30
2
93
15


South Wales and Monmouthshire.
66
16
5
87
7


West Cumberland
4
2
—
6
—


South Lancashire
2
1
—
3
—



181
65
16
262
36


No building schemes have yet been approved for the Wrexham Development Area.

Cotton Yarn (Book Cloth)

Mr, Skeffington-Lodge: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will increase the supplies of yarn for making cloth for bookbinding so as to match the quantity of books which is being produced with the paper now available.

Mr. Belcher: The allocation of cotton yarn for book cloth was raised in March last, and increased supplies of cloth should shortly be coming forward. I am well aware that book cloth is short and hope soon to be able to raise the allocation further but there are many other important claims on our limited supplies of cotton yarn, and I cannot undertake to see that increases in the supply of book cloth will be exactly matched up with increases in the supply of paper.

Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Is my hon. Friend aware that the gap between supplies of book cloth and the amount of paper available for publishing books is a

of the Department I represent, is that our own people are still in need.

Development Areas (Factories)

Mr. Peart: asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of new factories, extensions and modernisations approved for development areas in 1046; and what progress has been made.

Mr. Belcher: As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Following is the information:

very wide one? Actually I believe 100 per cent, of the books which were published before the war can now be produced with the paper allowed by the use of various expedients and economies yet only 60 per cent, of cloth is available for binding.

Mr. Belcher: The trouble, of course, is that paper supplies have improved more rapidly than cotton yarn, but we are aware of this wide gap and that is why I said we hope we shall be able to raise the allocation shortly.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: There are at present something like five million books unbound at the binders, awaiting covers, and will the hon. Gentleman take some urgent steps to try to release these books to the British public, who are so eagerly awaiting them, especially students?

Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the Minister explain what he means by " shortly "? Will it be within the next


two weeks or within the next month, or can he give any indication?

Mr. Belcher: I am sure the hon. and gallant Member does not expect me to give a definite period. I have given an undertaking that, so far as we can, we will do what we can to ease the situation. So far as unbound books are concerned, the problem is one of cotton yarn, and as soon as we get more yarn we will increase the allocation.

Mr. Champion: Is the Minister aware that most of the books published today deserve only paper bindings?

German Trade Processes (Information)

Commander Maitland: asked the President of the Board of Trade what arrangements he has made to make known the information regarding German trade processes obtained by B.I.O.S. to all manufacturers in this country.

Mr. Belcher: The arrangements for the distribution of reports on German trade processes prepared by the British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee investigators were given on 14th November and 30th January last, in replies to questions put by the hon. Member for Bury (Mr. W. Fletcher) and the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll), copies of which I am sending to the hon. and gallant Member. Present arrangements for publicising the information contained in these reports are as follows: particulars of the reports are listed, on publication, in the Board of Trade Journal and in the monthly list of Government Publications issued by His Majesty's Stationery Office; these lists are circulated to the trade and technical Press, who can obtain copies on request for reviewing, and to Chambers of Commerce. Consolidated lists, with reports arranged under subject headings, will be issued from time to time.

Commander Maitland: Is the hon. Gentleman quite happy that this process is not being interfered with by too much recognition of German patents?

Mr. Belcher: That seems to me to be altogether a different question, but if the hon. and gallant Member likes to put down a Question to that end, I will do my best to answer it.

Mr. Erroll: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, despite his intentions as to; the system of this distribution, the fact remains that a large number of manufacturers are not receiving this information, and could he not consider broadening the basis of distribution?

Mr. Belcher: The best thing that can be done is for the hon. Gentleman to give me details and I will do my best to look into the matter.

Mr. Solley: Is there any reason at all why the Government should not advertise to the people in the various industries that this information is available?

Mr. Belcher: Surely the fact that we are publishing the full facts in the Board of Trade Journal and in the monthly list of Government publications, issued by the Stationery Office, which are circulated to the trade and technical Press, shows that we are doing as much as we can be expected to do to advertise them.

Industrial Development, Western Isles

Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps are being taken to encourage the industrial development of the Western Isles.

Mr. Belcher: The possibility of expanding industry in the Western Isles is under urgent examination, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and the other Ministers concerned, but my hon. Friend will appreciate that it is not easy to attract new industry to this remoter part of the British Isles. I shall be happy to consider any suggestions he may have to make for this district.

Mr. MacMillan: Is my hon. Friend aware that we are gradually moving towards the end of a full Session of Parliament and that I have received a similar answer to this since the beginning of Parliament, that the conditions are similar to those of 1936 which this House, by Resolution, regarded as conditions of distress, and as these conditions are rapidly deteriorating, will not the Government take some initiative in the matter?

Mr. Belcher: I would not accept the criticism implied in the last part of my hon. Friend's question, and all I can


suggest is that the best way of meeting this matter is for him to come and see me, when I shall be very pleased to discuss it with him.

Mr. Kirkwood: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that there are hundreds of unemployed men in the Western Isles who, during the war, were engaged in mine sweeping and rendered yeoman service second to none in the British Empire? Surely the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Supply ought to be able to get together and do something to get them work.

Mr. Belcher: Yes, Sir, I am aware of the very high level of unemployment in the Western Isles—[An HON. MEMBER: " Why not do something?"] If the hon. Member opposite will spare me his interruptions I will try to show what we are doing about it. Early in March, at the request of the Scottish Regional Industries Panel, the Scottish Home Department agreed to conduct an inquiry, with the other Scottish Departments concerned, into the question of unemployment in this area. The Committee has not yet reported but I can give the assurance that when the report is received there will be no hesitation on the part of the Board of Trade doing what it can to ease what, I agree, is a most difficult situation.

Mr. Kirkwood: Will the hon. Gentleman do all that lies in his power to get this Committee to send in its report at once? If the members were unemployed and depending on 24s. a week, they would get a move on.

Mr. Belcher: Yes, Sir.

Mr. MacMillan: I beg to give notice that, in view of the most unsatisfactory answer, I shall raise this matter at the earliest possible moment.

Raw Cotton (Prices)

Mr. Erroll: asked the President of the Board of Trade the reasons for the recent increase in price of American raw cotton by 1d. per pound and Egyptian raw cotton by 2d. per pound; whether the trade was consulted prior to the increase being made; and for what period can the cotton industry be assured that there will be no further increases in price.

Mr. Marquand: The reason is the advance in the overall cost of Govern-

ment purchases of cotton since April, 1944, when the Control's selling prices were last fixed. The cotton trade was not consulted. It is hoped to maintain this general level for an appreciable period.

Mr. Erroll: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that while this absolutely fortuitous system of price fixing remains in force, manufacturers ought to be entitled to know that these prices will be maintained for a considerable time?

Mr. Marquand: I hope they will be maintained for a considerable time, but we must naturally have regard to the movement of prices elsewhere. If prices rise steeply elsewhere we may have to follow them in order not to put ourselves into the position of making losses.

Mr. Marples: Will the hon. Gentleman consider setting up some machinery so that cotton spinners can be consulted?

Mr. Marquand: No, Sir, we cannot possibly contemplate consulting people who might, in consequence, be placed in a position where they could use that inside knowledge for making profit.

Mr. R. S. Hudson: How does the hon. Gentleman propose that manufacturers of cotton goods, who make contracts for forward delivery, will be able to cover themselves against these increased costs?

Mr. Marquand: There is a full system of compensation. Any spinner who was short of cotton at the time the price changed can obtain compensation under the cover scheme now in operation by the Control.

Mr. Lever: Can my hon. Friend say what would be the price if the Liverpool Futures Market were operating, and the fortuitous system at present ruling were destroyed at the request of the Opposition?

Mr. Marquand: The current price at which the Control is selling American cotton to spinners in Lancashire is less than the New York spot price.

Sir John Barlow: Will the hon. Gentleman issue a profit and loss account of these charges?

Mr. Marquand: That is another question.

Mr. Bossom: When the hon. Gentleman says that compensation will be paid, is it not a fact that it will be paid by taxing the people of this country?

Mr. Marquand: No, Sir.

Mr. Bossom: Where will the money come from?

Mr. Marquand: It is all part of the transactions of the Cotton Control.

Mr. Marples: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is against the spirit of the Bretton Woods Agreement?

Mr. Marquand: No, Sir.

Cotton Industry (Working Party Report)

Mr. Haworth: asked the President of the Board of Trade what action he proposes to take on the Report of the Cotton Industry Working Party.

Mr. Belcher: As the answer is long, I will, with permission, make a statement after Questions.

Later—

Mr. Belcher: My right hon. and learned Friend is deeply grateful to Sir George Schuster and to the members of the Working Party for the cotton industry who have set out, in a Report of great clarity and ability, covering an immense field, problems that must be considered urgently by the industry and the Government. The Report is receiving the close attention of the Government, but consideration of so important a document must necessarily take some time. I trust that, in the meantime, individual firms in the industry, and representative organisations, will study the Report very carefully since it is clear that early action will have to be taken by all concerned to put this major industry on a sound and healthy basis. The various sections of the industry will, no doubt, put forward their own views as to the main objectives and recommendations of the Report; and the Government will wish, before final decisions are reached, to have the opportunity of discussing some important aspects of the proposals with bodies representing employers and operatives in the industry.
The Working Party have recommended that a Cotton Council should be set up as a central body for the industry and should have among its functions the responsibility of supplying a channel

through which the industry as a whole could express their views to the Government. This function would be inherited from the present Cotton Board, which was set up under the Cotton Industry Act, 1940, and the Government have decided that the Cotton Board should continue to exercise it until such time as any desirable constitutional or other adjustments have received legislative sanction. I am glad to say that the members of the Cotton Board have agreed to remain in office, and my right hon. and learned Friend has been assured of their wholehearted cooperation in the task. Sir Raymond Streat has accepted our invitation to make his services available over the next five years as Chairman of the Cotton Board, and in a similar position on any new successor body.
There are two further points on which the Working Party recommended immediate action: They proposed that surveys should be made of the existing plant, capacity, etc., of the industry, and the Government regard the carrying out of such surveys as an essential and, they hope, non-controversial preliminary to any measures designed to help the re-equipment of the industry. Arrangements are, therefore, being made jointly by the Cotton Board and the Cotton Control to institute surveys forthwith. The Working Party have also made recommendations for an immediate investigation into certain aspects of the position on textile machinery supplies. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply, whose Department, working in conjunction with the textile machinery manufacturers, have been stimulating the supply of textile machinery, appointing a small committee—under the chairmanship of the Hon. Mr. Justice Evershed—to investigate on his behalf and report on those matters connected with the manufacture and supply of textile machinery to the cotton industry recommended for immediate investigation in the Report of the Working Party.
Meanwhile, the Government wish it to be clearly understood that every desirable measure for improving output by individual firms should be pressed forward with urgency, and that the consideration of the Report should not be regarded as a reason for delay. If, in any case, the Board of Trade can help to overcome difficulties they will be glad to be consulted.

Major Haughton: Will exchange be made available if firms wish to import, say, automatic machinery, from America, to fulfil the suggestions made in this Report?

Mr. Belcher: That, of course, is one of the questions which will have to be considered by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply, who, as I have informed the House, is looking into this matter as one of urgency.

Mr. Stanley Prescott: Pending the final decision of the Government on the recommendations in this Report, and the necessary introduction of legislation, to what extent will the powers of the present Cotton Board be extended?

Mr. Belcher: It is not proposed, at the moment, to extend the powers of the Cotton Board at all; they will continue with their present functions. What will happen to the Cotton Board, or whether any other body will be substituted for the Board eventually, is a matter for consideration.

Mr. Sydney Silverman: In view of the importance of this industry to the export trade, and the necessity for urgency in putting it on its feet, has my hon. Friend considered whether any advantage would be gained by having a discussion in the House on the Report before the Government have committed themselves to any policy?

Mr. Belcher: That is a question which I should have thought would appropriately have been put to the Leader of the House, and I suggest that my hon. Friend does so.

Mr. Silverman: But will my hon. Friend bear in mind that I was not asking about time for discussion, but whether he thought it was a desirable thing to do? If he does not, there would be no need to get into touch with the Leader of the House.

Mr. Belcher: I am not sure that what I feel about the matter will have a great deal to do with it, but I will certainly consider it.

Mr. Suteliffe: In considering this Report in detail, will the Government first of all direct their attention to those parts of the Report on which complete agreement has been reached?

Mr. Belcher: I should think that would follow naturally.

Mr. Erroll: Will the hon. Gentleman give the names and emoluments of the Textile Machinery Committee, which is to be set up under Mr. Justice Evershed?

Mr. Belcher: That has not yet been determined. I can only suggest that the hon. Gentleman puts down a Question.

Sir W. Smithers: Will Sir Raymond Streat, or whoever is in control for the next few years, be authorised by the Government to deal in futures? I want an answer to that.

Panel B (Functions)

Mr. Walkden: asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the function of Panel B; the names of the respective members; and what positions they hold in the various Ministries or Departments of State.

Mr. Belcher: This Panel is responsible for coordinating inter-Departmental consideration of the disposal of surplus Government factories for peacetime production, and for making recommendations thereon to my right hon. and learned Friend, the President of the Board of Trade. The chairman is an official of the Board of Trade, and all Departments concerned are represented on the Panel by appropriate officials.

Furs (Imports from U.S.A.)

Mr. Challen: asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the value of the furs that have been imported from the U.S.A. during the three months ending 31st May; and what this represents in dollars.

Mr. Belcher: Imports of fur skins from the United States during the first four months of this year were valued, c.i.f., at £1.4 million. The dollar cost of these imports is not available, nor is it possible yet to give the value of the imports during May.

Mr. Challen: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that advertisements have appeared in the Press advertising large forthcoming consignments of furs from America? Does he not consider this a misuse of dollars, which should be prohibited?

Mr. Belcher: So far as I know, practically all these furs have been undressed


fur skins, and I do not think that a figure of £1.4 million for the first four months of this year indicates a tremendous flow of furs into this country, or a corresponding export of dollars.

Harris Tweed (Yarn Supplies)

Mr. M. MacMillan: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the numerous complaints from ex-Servicemen, trying to make a livelihood at weaving Harris tweed in the Outer Hebrides, owing to difficulty in, and in some cases the impossibility of, obtaining supplies of yarn for their work; and what early steps he proposes to take to assist these men to establish themselves in their native districts.

Mr. Belcher: The bulk of the yarn for the Harris tweed industry comes from the spinning mills in the Islands, who have been offered every assistance to increase their production as fast as possible. The demand, however, for yarn in the Islands appears to be considerably greater than before the war, and, while weavers who were engaged in the industry before the war are receiving supplies, there is at present not enough to meet all the demands from persons now wishing to begin weaving. This problem of yarn supply is under urgent investigation at present by representatives of all the Departments concerned.

Mr. MacMillan: Is my hon. Friend aware that here is an opportunity to help a staple industry, which can help largely to solve the unemployment problem? Is he further aware that I have been receiving the same reply for the last two or two and a half years, and will he do something urgently to give these men a chance to rehabilitate themselves in their own area?

Mr. Belcher: We have this problem very much in mind, and there is every anxiety on our part to deal with the situation in the Islands. As a matter of fact, some of the mainland mills have been supplying substantial quantities of yarn to the Islands, and we have asked that as supplies improve an increased proportion shall be sent to the Islands.

Commander Galbraith: In view of the fact that the livelihood of many men on

the Islands is affected, should not the Government give this matter priority?

Mr. Belcher: It is all very well, but there is a shortage of yarn. I do not know whether it is suggested that we should solve the unemployment problem in the Western Isles by creating unemployment elsewhere, but I do not think we should. I think we should do everything in our power to help these people without interfering too much with people elsewhere. That is precisely what we are doing.

Mr. Kirkwood: Is my hon. Friend aware that in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland there is a feeling that ex-Service-men are being treated worse than we are going to treat the Poles?

Mr. MacMillan: If I may be allowed to put a supplementary question, affecting my own constituency—

Mr. Kirkwood: On a point of Order. Is my hon. Friend aware that I put Questions affecting this part of Scotland before he came here?

Mr. MacMillan: Would the Parliamentary Secretary take into special consideration the fact that this industry has contributed out of all proportion to its size to our export trade with the United States in the dollar area? Does he realise that it is one of the two hopeful industries in the Islands, and will he give special consideration to it from that point of view, and not only from the point of view of the ex-Servicemen themselves?

Mr. Belcher: Yes, Sir.

Oral Answers to Questions — INDIA

Agricultural Implements (Imports)

Brigadier Mackeson: asked the Under-Secretary of State for India how many tractors and agricultural implements were imported into India during the first quarter of 1946.

The Under-Secretary of State for India (Mr. Arthur Henderson): Sixty-eight Crawler, 39 wheeled and 6 small garden tractors for agricultural purposes and 69 agricultural implements for power cultivation. There is no information available regarding tractors imported for purposes other than agriculture.

Brigadier Mackeson: Does not the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the numbers are very small, in view of the tremendous requirements?

Mr. Henderson: We are governed by conditions in the world market.

Provincial Legislative Assemblies (Electors)

Sir John Graham Kerr: asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he will state the total number of electors to the Legislative Assembly in such Provinces of British India as have provided the necessary information; and, in each case, the proportion borne by the elector ate to the total adult population.

Mr. A. Henderson: I have now received an advance copy of the information which, as stated in my reply to the hon. Member's Question on 20th May, will in due course be published in a return showing the results of the elections in India. The total electorate for all classes of constituencies in the recent Indian Legislative Assembly elections was 1,610,692. The number on the electoral rolls in contested constituencies was 1,033,346, and the number of votes polled was 539,881, and not 583,351 as stated in my answer to the hon. Member's Question on 6th May. The 1941 census does not record separately the total adult population of India, but according to a rough estimate worked out by the Government of India the number of persons in British India above 20 years of age is 155,000,000. The percentage of the total electorate to this figure is 1.04 per cent.

Pensions Obligations

Mr. Keeling: asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Cabinet Mission have obtained guarantees that any independent Government of India will honour the obligations of its present Government in respect of pensions.

Mr. A. Henderson: No, Sir, but these and other matters will come up for negotiation and settlement in due course in connection with transfer of power to the Government of the new Independent India. The stage for such negotiations has, however, not yet been reached.

Mr. Keeling: Will the Minister give an assurance that the British Government intend to safeguard the rights of these

pensioners, many of whom contributed to their pensions?

Mr. Henderson: I have just indicated that the matter of pensions will be the subject of negotiation in due course.

Mr. Keeling: That is not an answer.

Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is the Minister aware that this matter is causing some uneasiness, and that although we in the House have no doubt about the intentions of the Government, a reassuring statement would be very welcome to many people?

Mr. Henderson: I can assure the hon. Member that the question of pensions will obviously be safeguarded by His Majesty's Government.

Mr. Keeling: That is better.

Food Situation

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he will give the amounts of imported food grains now secured to meet Indian requirements; what allocations are now reaching India each month; and by what amount of tonnage requirements are still short.

Mr. A. Henderson: As regards the first part of my hon. Friend's Question, I would refer him to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Lord President on Friday last. In reply to the second part, about 235,000 tons of cereals were shipped to India in May and over 200,000 tons have already been arranged for shipment in June. In addition, about 80,000 tons of rice will be shipped to India during the second quarter of 1946 against her allocation of 146,000 tons for this period. As regards the last part of the Question, India's total requirements for imports of foodgrains, including rice, during 1946, were stated by the Government of India last March at about 4,000,000 tons. It is not yet possible to say by what amount of tonnage supplies for the whole year will fall short of requirements, since no programme has yet been arranged for the shipment of any cereals for the last quarter of 1946, nor have any rice allocations yet been made for the second half of the year.

Mr. Sorensen: Can my hon. and learned Friend give an estimate of the position at


the present tune, and also inform us whether steps are being taken to find any extra means of meeting the requirements?

Mr. Henderson: I am not in a position to give an estimate of the approximate shortage, as I have just indicated in my reply.

Mr. R. S. Hudson: Can the Minister say why, if today he can give the figures of Indian requirements, the Lord President of the Council refused to give them on Friday last?

Mr. Henderson: I can answer for my own sins of omission, but not for those of anybody else.

Mr. Nicholson: Will the Minister take steps to see that the House is furnished with regular statistical information showing the provisional allocations, the final allocations and the shipments as they take place, as set against India's requirements? Is he aware that what we suffer from more than anything else is a lack of information?

Mr. Henderson: The difficulty arises, with regard to the supplementary questions of the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Nicholson) and the right hon. Member for Southport (Mr.. R. S. Hudson), that the Combined Food Board have been dealing with the matter in respect of different periods of time. The question to which the right hon. Gentleman addressed himself on Friday referred to the whole year, whereas my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council was dealing with the five months from May to September.

Earl Winterton: In view of the great responsibility and the poignant anxiety which every one of us must feel about the position, surely the Minister could carry out the suggestion made by my hon. Friend and place in the Library each week a statement of the minimum import requirements of India and the amount which is arriving?

Mr. Henderson: I am afraid we are not in possession of information as to the minimum import requirements for a particular week. The Government of India stated their estimated requirements for 1946. If it were possible, I would certainly do as the hon. Member suggested, but I think the practical difficulties are such that it would not be possible.

Mr. Sorcnsen: Can my hon. and learned Friend say that at the present time the food requirements of India are being met and are likely to be met in the immediate future?

Mr. Henderson: I can say that at the present time the food requirements of the population of India, in the sense that the system of distribution has not broken down, are being met, but I am not in a position to say what will be the situation in two months' time.

Mr. Nicholson: In view of the fact that the lack of information has been such that it has been very difficult to get information on the subject, could the Minister make some helpful suggestion as to how the House might better keep track of this tragic situation?

Mr. Henderson: I shall be only too glad to consider whether it would be possible to give further information to the House, as the hon. Member suggests.

Oral Answers to Questions — BURMA

Dacoity (Preventive Measures)

Sir B. Neven-Spence: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma how Mr. Stanley, a Burma railways official, lost his life on or about 14th April.

The Under-Secretary of State for Burma (Mr. A. Henderson): I have received the following report. Mr. Stanley and his wife were travelling with six others in a compartment of a train from Mandalay to Rangoon. In the early morning of 20th April three unknown Burmans entered the compartment and when the train was in motion held up the passengers with a revolver. Mr. Stanley did not appear to understand Burmese and did not comply with the demands of the robbers who thereupon shot and killed him and subsequently jumped from the train between stations. Arrests have been made and an identification parade is to be held.

Sir B. Neven-Spence: Was this an isolated instance, or have there been hundreds of cases of murder and serious injury due to the operation of armed bands?

Mr. Henderson: I am not prepared to say that there have been hundreds of cases. In reply to a later Question, I


shall be dealing with the general position as regards internal security.

Lieut. -Colonel Corbett: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma (1) if he will give further information about the incident in April, when an omnibus on the Prome road about 60 miles from Rangoon was held up and three Indian soldiers were shot by dacoits;

(2) how many cases have been reported of looting of railway goods trains in Burma.

Mr. Dodds-Parker: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma, why defence guns have been withdrawn from villages in the Lewe township; and if he is aware that this has resulted in many poor and defenceless villagers being victimised by dacoits.

Commander Galbraith: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma if he is aware that armed dacoits recently attacked and looted a motor sampan and a vessel called " Yetama " at Padokawa; that they announced their intention of looting the " Yindaik " as soon as she might appear; and what steps have been taken to round up this gang.

Sir Stantey Reed: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma how many cases have occurred of armed hold-ups on the Taungdwingi railway in which the railway staff were involved.

Colonel J. R. H. Hutchison: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma whether he will give further details of the attack made by dacoits in April on a police post near Shwegyin in the Toungoo district when four policemen were murdered.

Lord John Hope: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma (1) if he is aware that at Shwebo, dacoities often involving murder are of frequent occurrence; and what steps he is taking to prevent them; (2) if he is aware that in the Pyinmana, Toungoo and other areas in Burma, employees of firms who are endeavouring, under Government control, to re-establish the country, are unable to tour the country without an armed escort of 20 men, and what measures he is taking to alter these conditions.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma

whether he is aware that no vessel can proceed from Mandalay to Upper Burma unless accompanied by a military guard and an armed escort vessel; and what steps he is taking to deal with this situation.

Mr. A. Henderson: I have asked the Governor for the specific information for which hon. Members have asked and will communicate with them on receipt of his reply. Meanwhile I can assure them that I am well aware of the serious situation as regards law and order which the authorities in Burma are facing at the present time. In some parts of Burma it is generally better than it was in the earlier months of the year, but in others, it continues to give grounds for anxiety and special steps, both general and local, have been taken to meet it. In particular additional measures have been concerted with the military authorities whose cooperation is proving most valuable and effective in dealing with well-armed bands of dacoits whose suppression is in a number of cases beyond the unaided resources of the police. Other measures, such as the provision of additional police officers on loan from the Army, extra armed police in all areas and for the rivers, armed guards on trains, and naval craft for the protection of river traffic, are all being put into operation.

Sir S. Reed: Has the attention of the hon. and learned Gentleman been directed to the perfectly staggering figures in an official return, which says that there have been 785 robberies, 265 murders, 347 cattle thefts and 558 robberies with attempted murder in March in districts excluding Rangoon?

Mr. Henderson: I was not aware of those exact figures.

Mr. Driberg: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that the situation in Burma is very serious indeed, and that the best way of restoring good order is by securing the enthusiastic cooperation of the Burmese Nationalist leaders instead of maintaining the stuffy old-fashioned Imperialist attitude still maintained by Government House, Rangoon?

Mr. Lever: On a point of Order. Is it in Order, Mr. Speaker, for an hon. Member opposite to call out "Traitor " when speaking of an hon. Member on this side?

Mr. Speaker: I did not hear any hon. Member use that word, but if one hon


Member accused another of being a traitor it would be out of Order and he should withdraw the remark.

Mr. Henderson: I am not prepared to accept the view that the policy carried out from Government House, Rangoon, is an Imperialistic policy. The policy which the Governor is carrying out is that of His Majesty's Government, who have made it clear, time and time again, that they are seeking to move as quickly as possible towards granting full self-government to the people of Burma.

Commander Galbraith: In view of the interruption of trade on the waterways of Burma, is the hon. and learned Gentleman able to inform the House that drastic steps are being taken in order to see that that trade is allowed to proceed as quickly as possible?

Mr. Henderson: I had hoped that my reply would have made it clear that the Government of Burma were taking every step possible to deal with this problem.

Mr. Bossom: On a point of Order. When one hon. Member, Mr. Speaker, accuses another of saying something unparliamentary, should he not name the hon. Member concerned? No one on this side heard the remark referred to.

Mr. Lever: I distinctly heard the word "Traitor," but I am not prepared to identify the individual hon. Member who called out the word.

Mr. Speaker: I did not hear it myself, but I think it would be better to let the matter drop.

Attempted Assassination

Sir Arnold Gridley: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma if he has any information to give about the attempted assassination of Mr. Butler on Saturday, 28th April, whilst returning from Dalla to Rangoon.

Mr. A. Henderson: I have received the following report. On 27th April, in Rangoon, an Indian named Majid Khan attempted to remove Mr. Butler's dispatch case from his car, but was interrupted by a Burman. Having gone on to Lewis Street jetty, Majid Khan was being questioned by Mr. Butler when he drew a revolver, held it at Mr. Butler's chest and pulled the trigger. Fortunately the weapon misfired. Majid Khan then

dropped his weapon and jumped into the river. An unsuccessful attempt at rescue was made.

Irrawaddy Flotilla Company

Sir A. Gridley: asked the Under- Secretary of State for Burma why the Irrawaddy Flotilla Company had to suspend its Delta services in April; and what steps have been taken to meet the situation.

Mr. A. Henderson: The Irrawaddy Flotilla Company was forced last April temporarily to suspend its services in the Delta area after several vessels had beer fired on. Following the taking of measures to ensure adequate protection, including the provision of armed police guards and naval craft for patrol purposes, the services have been resumed.

Sir A. Gridley: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma whether the Government of Burma have yet agreed to apply the Burma Extraordinary Pensions Rule to members of the staff of the Irrawaddy Flotilla Company, Limited, who may be killed or injured whilst on duty, through attack by armed dacoits.

Mr. A. Henderson: These rules do not apply to the employees of the Irrawaddy Flotilla Company since they are not Government servants to whom the rules apply. The Government of Burma have, however, suggested to the company that it should adopt similar rules for its own employees and, thereafter, take up with the Government of Burma the question of reimbursement in respect of payments which they make in cases where their employee are killed or injured by armed dacoits whilst on duty.

Anglo-Burman Community (Conditions)

Mr. Nicholson: asked the; Under-Secretary of State for Burma if he will cause a special inquiry to be made into the condition of the Anglo-Burman community and communicate the result to this House.

Mr. A. Henderson: I have consulted the Governor. A full report from him is on its way by mail and I will communicate further with the hon. Member when it has been received and considered.

Mr. Nicholson: I beg to thank the hon. and learned Gentleman for his reply.

Rice Cultivation

Lieut.-Colonel Corbett: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma what steps are being taken to induce the Burmese to cultivate their ricefields; what was the total crop in 1939; and what is the expected crop in 1946.

Mr. A. Henderson: As regards the first part of the Question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the detailed statement which I made in the House on the 5th April, 1946, to which I have at present nothing to add. The 1939 acreage was about 12,500,000 acres, producing approximately seven million tons of paddy. It is hoped that the acreage now being sown will be 8,500,000 (an increase of two million acres on the 1945 figure) and that the crop (the bulk of which will not actually be harvested until the beginning of 1947) will amount to approximately 3,750,000 tons of paddy as against 2,500,000 in 1945.

Revenue (Non-payment Campaign)

Brigadier Low: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma what steps are being taken to counteract the campaign in Burma against payment of revenue to the Government.

Mr. A. Henderson: The Governor has recently issued a general public warning that action would in future be taken against those who advocate illegal methods in order to advance their own policies. Legal action is already being taken against certain persons active in the campaign to which the hon. and gallant Member refers.

Anti-British Campaign

Colonel Wheatley: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Burma what steps have been taken to counteract the anti-British feeling which is being created by seditionists in Burma.

Mr. A. Henderson: I am calling for a report from the Governor.

Oral Answers to Questions — GOVERNMENT COMMITTEES (MEMBERS' COMMENTS)

Mr. Hollis: asked the Prime Minister whether he will make it a condition of appointment of members of committees, appointed by His Majesty's Government,

that after publication of their report they should not comment in the public Press or in public speeches on the means by which these committees have arrived at their conclusions.

The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): Sir, this matter is best left to the good sense and discretion of those concerned rather than made the subject of an instruction to members of committees.

Oral Answers to Questions — GERMANY

Anti-Nazi Families (Welfare)

Major Tufton Beamish: asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what measures have been taken, or are contemplated, to look after the families of those Germans who died in German concentration camps; and to reward and assist in every way possible the survivors of proved anti-Nazis involved in the attempt on Hitler's life on 20th July, 1944, and the families of such anti-Nazis who lost their lives in this attempt.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. John Hynd): Germans who can show that they have suffered hardship as a result of Nazi persecution can claim benefits under a special relief scheme recently introduced in the British zone. The scheme is administered by German committees, which include ex-inmates of concentration camps, under the supervision of the British authorities. The benefits cover financial assistance, extra food and priorities for such purposes as housing, employment and clothing.

Major Beamish: Is the Minister aware that many people think that our policy towards this very small number of Germans has been ungenerous and rather halfhearted, and will he look into the matter closely?

Mr. Hynd: In view of the fact that the administration of this matter is in the hands of ex-inmates of concentration camps and other anti-Nazi Germans, I do not think any charge of that kind can be levelled against our administration.

Prison Camps (Conditions)

Mr. Champion: asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will make a statement on the conditions existing in the camps at Sennelager.

Mr. J. Hynd: As already announced, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War has called for a report on past conditions in this and similar camps. I hope that the improvements that have been made in ration scales, medical facilities and welfare arrangements generally will soon show good results.

Reparation Deliveries

Mr. Marples: asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he now proposes to stop reparation deliveries out of the British zone of occupation in Germany.

Mr. J. Hynd: This matter is under consideration and I regret that I am not in a position to make a statement.

Mr. Marples: Does not the hon. Gentleman consider it desirable that there should be uniformity between the British and American zones on the question of reparation deliveries, and will he consult with the American authorities?

Mr. Hynd: I am of opinion that there should be uniformity between the four zones, but we have not yet reached that position at the moment.

Former Nazi Concentration Camps (Use)

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he has any further information as to the purpose for which the former Nazi concentration camps at Sachsenhausen and Buchenwald are at present being used.

Mr. J. Hynd: I am grateful for this opportunity of correcting the statement made in my reply of 27th March, to the hon. Member that these camps were in the American zone. In fact, they were in the Russian zone. I have had inquiries made, and am informed that these concentration camps no longer exist, although the buildings are being used by the Soviet authorities to house war criminals.

Displaced Persons, Belsen (Motor Car)

Mr. Sydney Silverman: asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster why the motor car belonging to the Central Committee of Displaced Persons at Belsen has been taken from them without com pensation; to which Germans and for what

purpose it has been presented; and whether he will remit the sentence of six months' imprisonment passed upon Mr. Rorendorn, President of the Jewish Committee at Neustadt Displaced Persons Camp and a member of the central committee, for his alleged refusal to obey in order to hand over the motor car, of which he was not the owner and of which he had no authority to dispose.

Mr. J. Hynd: I have called for a detailed report on this matter, and will communicate with my hon. Friend

Denazification (Commander-in-Chief's Speech)

Mr. Charles Smith: asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether his attention has been drawn to the speech recently made by Sir Sholto Douglas to the Advisory Council in the British zone, stating that a term should be fixed after which the denazification process should cease and no more measures should be taken against men whose records might be black but whose activities have been purely nominal; and whether this represents the policy of His Majesty's Government.

Mr. J. Hynd: In the course of his address to the German Advisor) Council in the British zone, the Commander-In-Chief referred to the handing over of much of the work of denazification:o committees composed of anti-Nazi Germans. He then said—I quote his exact words:
 We have done this because you must know best who are the men who should be punished, and you can best advise us regarding men whose record may look black, but whose activities were purely nominal.
I do not know how it was that an incorrect version of this statement became available to the Press. I am making inquiries to find out what occurred.

Zonal Barriers

Mr. Cocks: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the administrative and trading difficulties due to the existence of zonal barriers in Germany, he will approach the Governments of France and the U.S.A. with a view to pursuing a united trade and industrial policy in the three western zone.

The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. McNeil): Some progress has been made in establishing inter-zonal contact in trade and other matters.


His Majesty's Government are strongly in favour of increasing the flow of inter-zonal trade, not only between the three Western zones but also between all four zones, and in general of treating Germany as an economic whole in accordance with the Potsdam Agreement. Close contact in regard to these questions is continually maintained between the British authorities in Germany and those of the other three occupying Powers, and a reference to the treatment of Germany as an economic unit was made in the course of the recent meeting of Foreign Ministers at Paris. His Majesty's Government are actively considering what further steps can be taken.

Mr. Cocks: Owing to these zonal barriers, is it not a fact that the level of industrial life, and of all other life, is falling rapidly, and is causing a considerable increase in the burden on the British taxpayer? Will the Minister consider the possibility of getting unity in three zones if he cannot get unity in all four?

Mr. McNeil: There is already an exchange of bulk trade between ourselves and the American zone.

Oral Answers to Questions — GERMAN INDUSTRIES EXHIBITION

Mr. William Shepherd: asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster the purpose of the German Industries Exhibition to be held in Oxford Street; and why it has been decided to open this exhibition, in view of the Victory celebrations on 8th June.

Mr. Hynd: The House will be aware of the demand, reflected in Questions by hon. Members and in the Press, for information about what we are doing in Germany. The purpose of the exhibition "Germany under Control"Is to help satisfy this demand. It will illustrate the tasks which fall to our administration in Germany in consolidating the victory which we shall be celebrating later this week. The choice of opening date is therefore not inappropriate, and it will, I hope, prove convenient for the many visitors who will be in London at this time.

Mr. Shepherd: Does not the Minister appreciate that it is impossible to represent our task by means of an exhibition which is, in fact, a scandalous waste of public money? Is he so proud of the posi-

tion of the industries in the British zone that he wants to exhibit them in Oxford Street?

Mr. Hynd: I am not proud of the industries in the British zone, but I am proud of what our people have done. It is desirable that the people of this country should be aware of the difficulties and of what has been done under those difficulties. If the hon. Member takes the trouble to visit the exhibition, I am sure he will agree that it is well worth while.

Oral Answers to Questions — AGRICULTURE

Livestock for Export (Quarantine Stations)

Mr. Hurd: asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will increase the accommodation at the quarantine station through which pedigree livestock for export must pass so as to obviate the present delays in arranging shipments.

Mr. Oliver Poole: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will provide additional accommodation for quarantine in regard to livestock for export, as the present arrangements are totally inadequate.

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Thomas Williams): There are now three quarantine stations in Great Britain, providing accommodation in the aggregate for 145 cattle and 60 sheep or pigs. While I cannot agree that this is not normally adequate for the present volume of the trade, I am considering the possibilities of a modest enlargement of the Glasgow quarantine station to meet the larger accommodation provided by one of the vessels running to Canada.

Mr. Poole: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that buyers from abroad have difficulty in getting their purchases out of the country on account of the quarantine?

Mr. Williams: Yes, Sir. I am aware of that, and that is why we are endeavouring to increase the accommodation in Glasgow.

Rationed Feeding Stuffs (Reduction)

Mr. Hurd: asked the Minister of Agriculture if he will now state the probable rations of concentrated feeding stuffs that will be provided for dairy cows and other classes of livestock next winter.

Mr. T. Williams: Economies in the consumption of wheat and flour in the United Kingdom, the diversion of barley and maize for human consumption in famine-threatened countries, and the loss of Indian supplies of oilseeds, will reduce substantially supplies of rationed feeding stuffs during the next 12 months. On the best estimates we can make it is now clear that it will be impossible to maintain next winter the ration scales that were in operation in the past winter. The deficit between estimated supplies and requirements at present rates in sufficiently large to involve appreciable reductions in rations for all classes of stock, including dairy cows and domestic pigs and poultry, which have hitherto been unaffected by the world-wide shortage of supplies. Details of the new ration scales for the next winter rationing period are being finally worked out and will be announced at a very early date.

Mr. Hurd: Will the Minister take every possible step to get this announcement across to the farmers in good time?

Mr. Williams: Certainly, Sir.

Earl Winterton: Have there been the ordinary discussions with the National Farmers' Union, the Poultry Breeders' Association and other bodies representing the industry, or has the Minister decided this matter without consultation?

Mr. Williams: Consultations are always taking place between the Department and the 1 various interests. Consultations will take place again before the announcement is made.

Mr. R S. Hudson: In view of the very serious announcement which the right hon. Gentleman has just made, can he tell the House what sort of drop in production is likely to ensue, and in particular the drop in milk production?

Mr. Williams: I should have to be a Solomon to make a prophecy of that description. I fear it might be sizeable, but I hope it will not be nearly as bad as other cuts have been in the past.

Mr. Hudson: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how it comes about that less than a month ago the late Minister of Food said that there would be no reduction in the milk ration?

County Executive Committees

Mr. De la Bere: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is now in a position to declare the Government's policy in connection with the future of the members of the agricultural committees of the county councils; and, in particular, if it is the Government's intention to co-opt or nominate them to the new committees which are to take the place of the W.A.E.C.s.

Mr. T. Williams: No, Sir. These matters will be the subject of discussions with the County Councils Association in the near future.

Mr. De la Bère: Are we to banish from our minds the disturbing thought that these people will act as the agents of the Government and there will be no independent body left in the country?

Mr. Williams: The hon. Gentleman can banish from his mind any apprehension that he might hold with regard to our future executive committees.

Mr. De la Bère: Can the Minister say whether they are to be Government agents? I want to know whether there is to be any independent body left in the country. It is all-important. [HON. MEMBERS: " Answer."] The Minister dare not give the answer.

Mr. Williams: If the hon. Member will refer to my statement of 15th April he will see exactly what was intended.

National Advisory Service

Major John Morrison: asked the Minister of Agriculture how many persons have been selected for appointment to the National Agricultural Advisory Service so far; how many have been in the Services; and how many have practical experience of farming.

Mr. T. Williams: Apart from a few senior officers who have already been appointed or selected to make the preliminary arrangements for bringing the N.A.A.S. into being, staff will not be selected for appointment until all applicants have been interviewed and precise complements for the Service have been settled.

Cereal Acreage (1947 Target)

Mr. R. S. Hudson (by Private Notice): asked the Minister of Agriculture if he has any statement to make regarding the Government's new target for additional acreage of cereals for the 1947 harvest.

Mr. T. Williams: Yes, Sir. The figure of 2,500,000 acres applies to the wheat target which, as already announced, is being set for 1947. This acreage is not additional, and the Minister of Food has asked me to associate him with this correction to his statement in last Friday's Debate from which certain misapprehensions have evidently arisen.

Oral Answers to Questions — DOMINIONS (FOOD GIFTS)

Mr. Keeling: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he has made further inquiries as to schemes in the Dominions for surrender of food coupons by housewives for the benefit of this country; and whether he will arrange for food so relinquished to be sent here.

The Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Mr. Bottomley): The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. Voluntary schemes on these lines have been launched in Canada, Australia and New Zealand. As regards the second part of the Question, it is of course for the Dominion Governments concerned to decide how effect should be given to them. The United Kingdom Government for their part deeply appreciate the spirit which prompts such schemes and are ready to give any assistance in regard to shipping or otherwise which the Dominion Governments may desire.

Mr. Keeling: In view of the hopes held out in the Press that this food will be coming to this country, would the Minister make inquiries as to whether it will be sent, and publish the facts?

Mr. Bottomley: The scheme is not necessarily one for gifts alone. I understand that the Ministry of Food are prepared to buy whatever additional supplies of rationed food are available.

Oral Answers to Questions — AUSTRIAN PRISONERS OF WAR (NEWSPAPER)

Mr. Anthony Nutting: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will grant permission for the circulation of a publication called " Austria " among Austrian prisoners of war in this country.

Mr. McNeill: If the paper is submitted through the normal channels, it will be given every consideration.

Mr. Nutting: Does the Minister realise that a letter has already been sent to the Foreign Office asking that this paper should be circulated and that the answer was definitely a refusal? Is he aware that no reason whatsoever was given and will he look into the matter?

Mr. McNeil: I did take the trouble to look up the file and I discovered that I have this periodical sent to me personally every month and that it does not go to the Department.

Mr. Nutting: Why cannot it go to the prisoners of war? Why should it go to the Minister?

Mr. McNeil: I did carefully say "The normal channels."

Oral Answers to Questions — POLISH ARMED FORCES (REPATRIATION AND RESETTLEMENT)

Mr. Edelman: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the express desire of the French Government for suitable immigrants, he will consult with that Government with a view to the settlement of part of the Polish forces, after demobilisation, in France.

Mr. McNeil: His Majesty's Government have already approached the French Government in this matter, but have not yet received a considered reply.

Mr. Edelman: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his reply. Will he bear in mind, when these discussions take place, that a number of Polish soldiers are already in France and that they would be very happy to settle down there?

Mr. McNeil: The question of Poles domiciled in France is dealt with by the French Government.

Major Beamish: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what arrangements have been made with the Polish Provisional Government to re-unite the men and women of the Polish Armed Forces outside Poland, who cannot see their way to returning to their own country, with their Polish dependants now in Poland; and by when it is estimated that the last of such dependants will have left Poland.

Mr. McNeil: I regret that I can meantime add nothing to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member for South Pad-dington (Vice-Admiral Taylor) on 27th May.

Major Beamish: That reply did not give any information at all about this matter. Are we to understand that His Majesty's Government have decided to demobilise and disband the Polish Armed Forces outside Poland without insisting upon the Provisional Government giving some guarantee that the families of these men and women will be allowed to go out of Poland with their property?

Mr. McNeil: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will exert his usual care he will see that the statement refers to families elsewhere than in the United Kingdom.

Oral Answers to Questions — TRANSYLVANIA

Sir W. Smithers: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will give the reasons why he accepted the demand that the whole of Transylvania should be given to Rumania, contrary to the declared British policy of September, 1940, and January, 1945.

Mr. McNeil: I cannot agree that the statements made on 5th September, 1940, by the then Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) contained any precise undertaking as to the settlement of the frontier between Rumania and Hungary. His Majesty's Government have made no subsequent declaration on this question. After full discussion of the matter in the Council of Foreign Ministers in London in September of last year and recently in Paris, it was decided not to intervene in this difference between two ex-enemy countries other than to reverse the decision imposed by Nazi Germany in August, 1940.

Sir W. Smithers: Was this last development of policy by His Majesty's Government designed to placate Russia?

Flight-Lieutenant Haire: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that an arrangement which places a Hungarian minority of some one and a half million in Rumania and leaves only a minority of some 40,000 Rumanians in Hungary cannot be described as fair or just, and would he undertake to see that representations from both sides of this problem are heard before the decision taken at Paris is finalised at the Peace Conference?

Sir Arthur Salter: May I ask whether a large minority of something like a million and a half Magyars in Transylvania will have the protection of the Minority Treaty which has hitherto been in force?

Mr. McNeil: I will consider that, but I would have liked notice of the question.

Sir W. Smithers: Can the hon. Gentleman answer my question?

Professor Savory: Is not my hon. Friend aware that it is proposed to transfer certain districts almost entirely inhabited by Magyars, and will he have this question reconsidered so that genuine bona fide Magyars are not transferred to alien administration?

Mr. Mack: Is my hon. Friend aware that this considerable minority of Hungarians in Transylvania have been afforded absolute equality in every direction by the present Rumanian Government and that they have expressed to me personally their satisfaction with the arrangement which has been made at the present time for their treatment?

Flight-Lieutenant Haire: Is it not a fact that no Government was more surprised by the Paris decision than the Rumanian Government itself which expected that there would be a fair division of Translyvania which would equate minorities of both sides, thus guaranteeing their citizen rights?

Mr. McNeil: I have no doubt that my hon. and gallant Friend enjoys the confidence of the Rumanian Government more closely than I do.

Oral Answers to Questions — EGYPT(MURDERED BRITISH SOLDIERS)

The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of MR. MOLSON:

No. 89.—To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the official statement made by the Egyptian Prime Minister on 28th May regarding the murder of British soldiers in Alexandria on 4th March; and what action His Majesty's Government now propose to take.

Mr. McNeil: I am grateful to you, Sir, and to the House for the opportunity of making this statement in reply to Question 89. My right hon. Friend has read the statement made by the Egyptian Prime Minister with surprise and with great concern. Naturally His Majesty's Government do not wish to enter into a public argument with the Egyptian Prime Minister about these regrettable events. Yet since Sidki Pasha's statement was an official statement made to the Egyptian Chamber of Deputies, my right hon. Friend feels bound to report to the House that the full accounts obtained by the British Military Authorities refute conclusively the suggestions in Sidki Pasha's statement that the attacks on British Service installations in Alexandria on 4th March, and in particular on British military posts, were in the smallest degree brought about by provocation on the part of British Service personnel in opening fire on the crowd. The five British Military policemen in the post were fiercely attacked by the crowd for an hour and 40 minutes, and opened fire only in self-defence and after a warning shot had been ignored. During this period neither the Egyptian police nor the Military made any determined attempt to rescue the British Military policemen, and, in the end, two of them were most brutally murdered when trying to make their escape. Sidki Pasha's statement that the presence of five military policemen in their post was unjustified since the town had been put out of bounds on that day by agreement between the Egyptian and British authorities must also be refuted. It is, of course, not the case that putting a town out of bounds for troops entails removing the military police. On the contrary their presence there is essential to ensure that the order is carried out. To one particular passage in Sidki Pasha's statement I

am also bound to refer, namely, where he said— quote of course the translation published in the Press:
Major Richardson, one of the residents of the Cecil Hotel, which looks on to the square, made a report saying that the kiosk was set tire to only after the British soldiers had fired on the demonstrators and wounded a certain number of them.
The fact is that Major Richardson, who happened to be in the Hotel Cecil overlooking the square where the police post was situated, watched the attack on the post from his room on the fourth floor of the hotel and gave evidence afterwards in a statement to the British military authorities. This statement makes it clear that only after the crowd had attacked the post with stones and bricks and then attempted to knock the windows in did the occupants fire a shot— warning shot—nd that they subsequently opened fire only when the attack started again from all sides. Major Richardson's statement also affirms, and I quote the passage:
 that neither the Egyptian soldiers nor the Egyptian police made any attempt to stop the attack.
One can therefore only conclude that the version of this account which reached Sidki Pasha and on which he based his remarks was grossly perverted. I should repeat that His Majesty's Government hold the Egyptian authorities responsible for this melancholy occurrence. His Majesty's Ambassador has been instructed to make further direct representations to the Egyptian Government on the subject and I would, therefore, be indebted to the House if, for the present, they would accept this statement.

Mr. Eden: While thanking the hon. Gentleman for fully and frankly informing the House, may I ask him to say—I am sure all sections of the House endorse every word he has said—hat our own knowledge of the tolerance and courage of our own soldiers does not make us feel very kindly disposed to those unjust aspersions when they are cast on our troops?

Mr. McNeil: While I do not disagree, I think I should inform the House that the Egyptian Government at once offered privately a very full and, I have no doubt, a very sincere apology.

Mr. Molson: I should like to ask the Under-Secretary of State whether he has noted that in the Egyptian Prime


Minister's statement to the Egyptian Parliament, he justified the action of the Governor of Alexandria? Is he also aware that on 15th May the Financial Secretary to the War Office stated that the Military Governor of Alexandria had falsely informed the British military authorities that the men had already been rescued and, therefore, he has a special personal responsibility in the matter of these men? Are His Majesty's Government pressing the Egyptian Government to take suitable action against the Military Governor of Alexandria?

Mr. McNeil: The discrepancy in the information has already been brought to the notice of the Egyptian Government, but as the hon. Gentleman will agree, the matter of the treatment of the Governor is a matter exclusively for the Egyptian Government.

Major McCallum: May I ask if the Minister can say it is true that the Brigadier in charge of Alexandria was asked to give the two victims a civil funeral rather than a military funeral because of the display of military power, and the brigadier took upon himself the responsibility of refusing this and gave a proper military funeral?

Mr. McNeil: May I make it clear that it is not within my information, but perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will put a Question down to the Secretary of State for War?

Oral Answers to Questions — QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS

he following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Sir T. MOORE:

No. 75—To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can yet

make a statement in regard to the trial of General Mihailovitch; and whether British witnesses will now be permitted to give evidence according to their declared wishes."

Sir T. Moore: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that the hon, Gentleman has thought it proper to give such a full and complete answer to Question No. 89, would he not also adopt the same attitude and the same action in regard to Question No. 75, which relates to General Mihailovitch?

Mr. Speaker: My permission had been asked first and on this other Question it has not been asked.

Sir T. Moore: I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker. May I ask your permission now?

Mr. Speaker: No, it is too late.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Eden: May I ask the Leader of the House if he will be good enough to tell us what are the Government's intentions about Business today in the event of their securing the suspension of the Rule for which they are asking?

The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Yes, Sir. We desire to obtain the Second Reading of the Hill Farming Bill and the Money Resolution; and the Committee and remaining stages of the Ministerial Salaries Bill, and I hope that there will be no objection to our taking the Committee and remaining stages of the British Museum Bill [Lords]. It is proposed to suspend the Rule but I hope that we shall obtain the Business without sitting unduly late.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order

(Sittings of the House)."—[Mr. H. Morrison,]

The House divided: Ayes, 200; Noes, 92.

Division No. 190.
AYES
[3.40 p.m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)
Price, M. Philips


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)
Pritt, D. N.


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Grierson, E.
Pryde, D. J.


Allighan, Garry
Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)
Pursey, Cmdr H.


Alpass, J. H.
Gunter, Capt. R. J.
Reeves, J.


Attewell, H. C.
Guy, W. H.
Reid, T. (Swindon)


Austin, H. L.
Haire, Flt.-Lieut. J. (Wycombe)
Rhodes, H.


Ayles, W. H.
Hall, W. G. (Coins Valley)
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)


Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.
Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)


Bacon, Miss A.
Hannan, W. (Maryhill)
Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)


Balfour, A.
Hardy, E A
Rogers, G. H. R.


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J
Harrison, J.
Sargood, R


Barstow, P. G.
Haworth, J.
Scollan, T.


Barton, C.
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Scott-Elliot, W.


Battley, J. R.
Herbison, Miss M.
Segal, Dr. S.


Bechervaise, A. E
Hicks, G.
Shackleton, Wing-Cdr. E. A. A.


Belcher, J. W
Holman. P
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)


Benson, G.
Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Silverman, J. (Erdington)


Beswick, F.
House, G.
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)


Bing, G. H. C.
Hoy, J.
Skeffington, A. M.


Bottomley, A. G.
Hubbard, T.
Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.


Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Skinnard, F. W.


Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Smith, Capt. C. (Colchester)


Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exeh'ge)
Irving, W. J.
Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Jeger, G. (Winchester)
Smith, T. (Normanton)


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Snow, Capt. J. W.


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Solley, L. J.


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Keenan, W.
Stamford, W.


Burke, W. A.
Kenyon, C.
Steele, T


Byers, Lt.-Col. F.
Kinley, J.
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)


Chamberlain, R. A
Kirkwood, D.
Stubbs, A. E.


Champion, A. J.
Lavers, S.
Swingler, S.


Chater, D.
Lever, Fl. Off. N. H.
Symonds, Maj. A. L.


Chetwynd, Capt. G. R
Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)


Clitherow, Dr. R
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)


Cluse, W. S.
Mack, J. D.
Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)


Cobb, F. A.
Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N-W.)
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)


Cocks F. S.
McLeavy, F.
Thorneycroft, H. (Clayton)


Colliok, P.
MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)
Thurtle, E.


Collins, V. J.
McNeil, H.
Tiffany, S.


Colman, Miss G. M.
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)
Titterington, M. F.


Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.
Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)
Tolley, L.


Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)
Marquand, H. A.
Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.


Corlett, Dr. J.
Mayhew, C. P.
Turner-Samuels, M.


Crawley, Flt.-Lieut A.
Mitchison, Maj. G. R.
Usborne, Henry


Daggar, G.
Monslow, W.
Vernon, Maj. W. F.


Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Montague, F
Wallace, G. D. (Chisiehurst)


Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Moody, A. S.
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


Davies, Harold (Leek)
Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Warbey, W. N.


Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)
Watkins, T. E.


Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Deer, G.
Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Dodds, N. N.
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)
Whileley, Rt. Hon. W.


Driberg T. E. N.
Moyle, A.
Wilkes, Maj. L.


Dye, S.
Neal, H. (Claycross)
Wilkins, W. A.


Edelman, M.
Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Williams, J. L. (Kelvlngrove)


Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
Noel-Buxton, Lady
Williams. Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)


Farthing, W. J.
Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Fraser, T. (Hamilton)
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Wilmot, Rt. Hon. J.


Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)
Parker, J.
Wise, Major F. J.


Ganley, Mrs. C. S.
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rusheliffe)
Woodburn, A


Gibson, C. W.
Paton, J. (Norwich)
Yates, V. F.


Glanville, J. E. (Consett)
Pearson, A.
Young, Sir R. (Newton)


Gooch, E. G
Peart, Capt T. F.
Zilliacus, K.


Goodrich, H. E.
Perrins, W.



Gordon-Walker, P. C.
Popplewell, E.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES



Porter, E. (Warrington)
Mr. Collindridge and Mr. Simmons




NOES.


Agnew, Cmdr. P. G
Baxter, A. B.
Bossom, A. C


Baldwin, A. E.
Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.
Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.


Barlow, Sir J.
Boothby, R.
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.




Buchan-Hepburn, P, G. T.
Lancaster, Col. C. G.
Ramsay, Maj. S.


Butcher, H. W.
Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.
Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)


Carson, E.
Lindsay, M. (Solihull)
Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)


Challen, C.
Lucas, Major Sir J.
Robinson, Wing-Comdr. Roland


Clarke, Col. R. S.
Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.
Savory, Prof. D. L.


Corbett, Lieut-Col. U. (Ludlow)
MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.
Scott, Lord W.


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.
McCallum, Maj. D.
Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)


Digby, Maj S. W.
Macdonald, Capt. Sir P. (I. of Wight)
Smithers, Sir W.


Dodds-Parker, A. D.
Mackeson, Lt.-Col. H. R-
Snadden, W. M.


Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
McKie, J. H. (Galloway)
Spearman, A. C. M.


Drayson, Capt. G. B.
Maclay, Hon. J. S.
Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)


Drewe, C.
MacLeod, Capt. J.
Sutcliffe, K.


Dugdale, Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)
Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)
Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)


Duthie, W. S.
Marples, A. E.
Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)


Erroll, F. J.
Marsden, Capt. A.
Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)


Fletcher, W. (Bury)
Marshall, D. (Bodmin)
Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.


George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke)
Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)
Thorp, Lt.-Col. R. A. F.


Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G.
Mellor, Sir J.
Turton, R. H.


Gridley, Sir A.
Molson, A. H. E.
Vane, W. M. T.


Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)
Morris-Jones, Sir H.
Wakefield, Sir W. W


Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)
Walker-Smith, D.


Haughton, S. G.
Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S, (Cirencester)
Webbe, Sir H (Abbey)


Hollis, M. C.
Neven-Spence, Sir B.
Wheatley, Colonel M. J.


Hope, Lard J.
Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord


Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)
Nutting, Anthony
Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)


Hurd, A.
O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H.



Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)
Peake, Rt. Hon. O.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES


Joynson-Hicks, Lt.-Cdr. Hon. L, W
Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)
Mr. Studholme and Major Conant.


Keeling, E. H.
Prescott. Stanley



Question put, and agreed to.

Orders of the Day — HILL FARMING BILL

Order for Second Reading read.

3.58 p.m.

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Thomas Fraser): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
Before going on to deal with the actual provisions of the Bill, I should like to say a word or two about the reasons for the Bill. It is generally appreciated that hill farming is the only important branch of British agriculture in which serious economic depression exists today. That is agreed on all sides. For several years before the war, conditions in this industry were so bad that it was impossible in many areas to find new tenants for farms. Each year more and more farms had to be taken over and farmed by their owners and, very often I am afraid, by unwilling owners. In certain areas, and I think this more particularly applies to Scotland, flocks were taken off the hillsides altogether, and the land was allowed to revert to its natural state. Bracken spread across the hillsides, and very often these lands merely deteriorated and were added to the already large areas that are normally called deer forests.
It would be useful if I mentioned a few figures, to give the House some idea of the extent and importance of this branch of

agriculture. The area of land involved in the United Kingdom is about 16 million acres, consisting almost entirely of mountain and hill grazings. Even though the land is much less productive than the more fertile lowlands, it represents, nevertheless, some 34 per cent, of the agricultural land of the country.
The number of breeding ewes carried on this huge area of land amounts to some 4| million head and the number of cattle to about 320,000. While the industry is roughly the same size in Scotland as in England and Wales it is relatively of much greater importance north of the border. This is perhaps best illustrated by saying that rough hill grazings in Scotland account for nearly 70 per cent, of the total farm land of the country and in England and Wales the proportion is 17 per cent. In Northern Ireland the hill grazings, although much smaller in extent, about 700,000 acres, still represent 31 per cent, of the total agricultural land. These differences in relative importance in the different parts of the United Kingdom do not, of course, mean that in the areas, and on the farms concerned, the problem is not as serious in England, Wales and Northern Ireland as in Scotland.
The proceeds from the rearing of hardy sheep and cattle represent almost the only source of income of the agricultural community in the areas concerned. They are, however, of vital importance to the country not only from the direct contribution they make to the nation's food and clothing supply in the form of mutton, beef


and wool, but because they supply the lowland feeders and grazers with the store stock they need for fattening on their better quality grasslands. The flocks of hardy mountain ewes are indeed the foundation upon which a large part of the sheep rearing industry of the country is built, for lowland flockmasters depend upon them for their supplies of draft ewes for crossing with lowland rams and for the wether lambs for fattening. Similarly the hill areas are well suited for the breeding of store cattle of beef type to be reared for eventual fattening in the arable districts. Our home meat supply is initially and ultimately dependent on the maintenance of foundation stocks in the hill lands of this country. The economic position of this branch of farming did not materially change during the war. Hill farms, consisting as they do of relatively large areas of rough grazings, with only small areas of land enclosed in fields and capable of cultivation, could not benefit from the improved and secure markets for cereals, potatoes, and other arable crops. Nor could they obtain direct benefit from the improved markets for fat sheep or fat cattle. Only a small proportion of the stock sold by hill farmers each year are in a fat condition ready for slaughter. Almost the whole of the sales of stock are of necessity made to other farmers in low ground districts, who use them either for further breeding or as feeding animals.
Normally, I think it is agreed, improved prices and secure markets for fat stock would imply corresponding improvements in the prices and markets for the unfinished article, in this case the store animal. But hill farmers during the war did not find their markets or prices improved to the extent that might have been expected. The reason for this was quite simple. The volume of output of store sheep from the hills was, by and large maintained at the prewar level, but on the low ground the amount of fodder and keep available to feed these sheep when they came off the hills grew gradually less as the ploughing up campaign extended. The consequence was that low ground feeders were not able to buy so many store sheep as formerly, and I am afraid that lack of demand was reflected in the prices paid. In the case of wool the hill farmers did get full benefit from the improved control prices for all they produced, but wool represents only some so per cent, of the hill

farmer's total income. While, therefore, the incomes of hill farmers showed relatively modest improvement compared with the incomes obtained from other types of farming, expenditure mounted at least as much as in other branches of agriculture. Shepherds received the wage increases which accrued to farm workers generally and the prices of materials and supplies of all kinds increased over the country as a whole. Wages I believe account for about 30 per cent, of the hill farmer's expenditure, and have probably gone up by at least 100 per cent, during the war years. Only rents have shown no appreciable change.
In the face of the persistent economic depression the Government, in 1941, decided, in the interests of immediate food production and the long term interests of agriculture as a whole, to give direct subsidy assistance to hill farmers. Since 1941, therefore, annual subsidies have been paid varying from 2s. 6d. to as much as 8s. in respect of each breeding ewe carried in hill flocks. The rate of assistance has been adjusted each year in the light of the circumstances ruling at the time, but always with the general object of maintaining, on the average, a moderate level of reward year by year. To date the State has incurred an expenditure of approximately £7 million in respect of this direct subsidy assistance, and I am afraid that that money has not gone into the land. It has merely been spent to keep the farmers on their feet, to keep that industry ticking over. A further form of direct subsidy assistance instituted in 1941 has also been of some help to hill farmers. I refer to the subsidy granted to the farmers in the hill cattle subsidy schemes. The House will therefore appreciate the serious and persistent character of the economic depression which has afflicted hill farming. Even before the war the position was giving rise to serious concern, but no comprehensive review of the problems involved was undertaken.
It was in those circumstances that, again in the same year as the subsidy scheme, in 1941, the agricultural Ministers were so impressed with the seriousness of the matter that special committees of inquiry were set up to investigate the whole position. The inquiry in England and Wales was entrusted, as the House knows, to a committee of the Agricultural Improvement Council under the chairman-


ship of Earl De La Warr. In Scotland it was undertaken by a departmental committee of which Lord Balfour of Burleigh was chairman. Both there committees reported early in 1944, and both made many important and far-reaching recommendations. The reports brought out clearly that one of the main reasons for the economic position in which the industry found itself was the serious deterioration in the condition of much of the hill land and in the equipment of hill farms. There had for long years been few attempts made to maintain, let alone improve, the character and fertility of the land; drainage had been neglected; the bracken pest had been allowed to spread to alarming proportions; capital equipment of all kinds had wasted away; productivity had suffered considerably. Both farmers and farm workers were gradually leaving what many regarded as a dying industry.
The unanimous conclusion of both committees of inquiry was that the accumulated neglect of the past had now reached such serious dimensions that it was quite beyond the power of the industry, itself to put it right and substantial assistance from the State would be required. The way out of the depression lay in achieving a radical improvement in productivity, output, and farming efficiency, which implied a long term task of thorough rehabilitation and improvement. Both committees emphasised the national importance of maintaining an efficient and substantial hill farming industry to maintain the stocks of hardy sheep which are the necessary foundation of sheep husbandry in this country, and to make proper use of these extensive areas of hill land on which hill sheep farming might be made a sound economic proposition. By far the most important recommendations of both committees dealt with proposals for rehabilitation. These have in large measure been adopted including the necessity for considerable financial assistance from the State, and the Bill now before the House is mainly concerned with giving effect to these proposals.
There is, however, one important difference between the measures now proposed and those recommended to us to which I should draw attention. Both committees recommended that compulsory powers should be taken so that the appropriate Minister could require schemes of improvement to be put into effect where

this might be considered necessary in the national interest, and where owners and tenants were unable or unwilling to take action voluntarily. In addition, it was proposed that, as a last resort, the Minister might have powers to terminate tenancies and dispossess owners. However, I think it should be appreciated that the question of securing power to deal with incompetence or inefficiency is only part of a much wider problem which is common to agriculture as a whole. It is the intention of the Government that this should be dealt with on the lines indicated in the statement on long-term policy made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture on 15th November last. The present Bill, therefore, will depend for its success primarily on the voluntary response which it secures from the industry. We think that it gives owners and occupiers a fair chance, with the aid of Exchequer grants, to make good, but if they are unwilling to make a proper use of this Bill in due course, we shall have, I hope, the powers that my right hon. Friend said we would seek in legislation. If it is necessary to exercise them I have no doubt that my right bon. Friend the Minister and the Secretary of State will make the fullest use of them.
I see nothing in this development of agricultural policy to prejudice the eventual ownership of agricultural land by the State. I think it necessary to make that observation because the Labour Government have been accused by forces outside of being motivated all the time by doctrinaire policies. We in the Labour movement have over many years proclaimed that the only sound basis for a healthy agriculture in this country lay in the public ownership of the land. That may very well be so; indeed, I accept it without reservation. As things stand at present, however, the Government are not in a position to make any proposals for assuming ownership of hill farming land or any other land. That policy is not, therefore, an immediate alternative to the one proposed. It might perhaps be argued that it would be wiser not to initiate any positive policy for hill farming, until the State was in a position to assume ownership of the land. That, however, would be a most unwise attitude to adopt.

Sir Henry Morris-Jones: I think that the hon. Gentleman, in a


matter of this sort, should be a little more explicit to the House. We have had several warnings from various junior Ministers in the Administration and it is only fair to the country that, having gone so far, they should go a little further and categorically answer this question: Is it the intention of His Majesty's Government to nationalise the land of this country during the period of this Parliament?

Mr. Fraser: That just does not arise.

Sir H. Morris-Jones: But it does.

Mr. Fraser: No, it does not. I have said some people have attacked this Bill and said that what a Labour Government ought to have done was to have nationalised the land, or taken into public ownership the hill farming industry, if it was in such a state of economic depresssion that a measure of financial assistance was necessary. I have said we do not contemplate doing anything of the kind meantime—

Mr. McKie: What does that mean?

Mr. Fraser: It just means " meantime."

Mr. McKic: This is a matter of great importance. The hon. Member for Denbigh (Sir H. Morris-Jones) was perfectly justified in asking that the Joint Under-Secretary should be more explicit. The hon. Gentleman talks about " meantime." Will he tell us if it is the intention of the Government in this present Parliament to nationalise land?

Mr. Fraser: I cannot prophesy all that is going to happen in this Parliament. I do not know what His Majesty's Government will do between now and going out of office. There is no cut and dried scheme of which I am aware for the nationalisation of the land. That is what I am trying to say.

Mr. Turton: Like iron and steel.

Mr. Fraser: I have said that, meantime, this measure of State assistance seems to us to be necessary if we are to rehabilitate the hill farming industry. Here, indeed, is a section of farming whose condition has been steadily going from bad to worse. It is now in a position which is

quite beyond the capacity of those within the industry to tackle. Delay in inaugurating a constructive policy in these circumstances, on the grounds that it was far from ideal, would not be justified. I think that is fair. There is a reservoir of wisdom and skill within the industry which, given the resources and the guidance, in many cases can do a great deal towards restoring the industry to a healthy condition. Let me say, further, in answer to some of my hon. Friends on this side of the House, that I am quite satisfied that the expenditure contemplated will be put to proper and essential purposes. Some of my hon. Friends have said to me that, if we are going to extend the scope of our nationalisation in this country—common ownership—what we are doing now is pumping money into private industry, building up private property and causing its value to appreciate, so that, if ever it should be necessary, in the public interest, to acquire those properties, we shall have to pay all the more for them. I do not think that that necessarily follows. I think it would be a quite straightforward matter, if it should be considered necessary in the national interest to assume the ownership of land, to have regard to previous expenditure by the State on the property or properties in question. That seems to me to be fair.

Mr. Alpass: Is there, anywhere in the Bill, any provision for what my hon. Friend has just mentioned?

Mr. Fraser: There could not possibly be. That would have to be in a Bill seeking power to take over the land. I think the State's interests are adequately safeguarded, but, if hon. Members think that they can be better safeguarded, we shall be very happy indeed to examine any practicable suggestions which may be made.
Before turning to the provisions of the Bill in detail, I should like to say something on the relation between the policy of this Bill and the afforestation programme. There can be little doubt that areas of hill land exist in various parts of the country which, even if substantial sums of money were spent on improvement and rehabilitation, would still remain a doubtful economic proposition for sheep farming. In such cases, the national interest would no doubt demand


that the land should be diverted to forestry or other more suitable use. There is no intention whatsoever of using the powers under this Bill to maintain in use for sheep farming land which ought not to continue to be used for that purpose. On the other hand, it is definitely of advantage, from the point of view of those interested in afforestation, that such land as is devoted to hill farming should be as productive as possible, so that enough land may be available for afforestation without detriment to the supply of sheep for lowland farmers. This Bill is therefore not in competition with the Government's forestry programme, but complementary to it. The Bill provides definite safeguards from this point of view. Under Clause 1 (2) the Minister must, before approving a hill farming improvement scheme, satisfy himself that the land ought to continue to be used for hill farming purposes and that the cost of the work will not be excessive in relation to the ultimate benefit to be derived. This puts on to the shoulders of the Ministers the task of appraising the value of any area for hill farming and afforestation respectively, and determining to which of these uses the land ought to be put. To the extent that some hill land, although suitable for sheep, has already been allowed to go to forestry because of the owner's lack of capital, the Bill, by remedying this disability, will make easier the task of deciding on the relative merits of sheep and forestry in regard to the future use of the land.
The first part of the Bill, Clauses 1–10, makes provision for Exchequer assistance to be given to owners and occupiers for the carrying out of improvement schemes for hill farming land in the United Kingdom. Clause 1 empowers the appropriate Minister to make grants towards the cost of carrying out improvement schemes which have been submitted at any time within five years of the Bill becoming law. It is not, of course, expected that the work will be completed within five years. Indeed, the work of improvement and rehabilitation carried out under this scheme may well take up to 10 years, or even longer, to complete. Schemes may be submitted by the parties concerned either for one holding or a number of holdings, whichever is the more appropriate. Before approving a scheme the Minister must be satisfied that the land in

question forms a suitable farming unit and one which should be devoted to hill farming purposes. He has also to satisfy himself that the scheme of improvements proposed is comprehensive enough to secure proper renovation of the subject for agricultural purposes, and, taking a long view, that the expenditure involved is reasonable. This is a unique conception in agricultural policy and deserves emphasis. Assistance will not be offered under this Bill for individual works of improvement at the choice of owner or occupier unless they form a satisfactory whole likely to bring the subject concerned into a reasonably satisfactory condition. Necessary definitions arc also included in Clause 1, indicating the type of land with which it is proposed to deal, the type of farming which is associated with it, and the character of the improvements which may form part of an approved scheme and which may rank for grant. These latter are listed in the First Schedule to the Bill and I think are sufficiently comprehensive to indicate how serious, and at the same time how complex, are the problems facing the industry. If necessary, the kinds of operation listed in this Schedule may be modified by order.
Perhaps I may be allowed to say a few words about the third item in the Schedule which deals with workers' cottages. The Schedule to this Bill was drafted before the Government's general policy on housing had been formulated and this item as it stands is not in keeping with that policy. It is our intention, therefore, to introduce at a later stage an Amendment which will make it clear that the assistance given will not add to the number of tied houses and, indeed, should lead to its reduction. Cottages for which assistance may be granted will, therefore, be required to be let in the ordinary way.
Clause 2 lays down that grant aid from the Exchequer will be equal to one half of the cost of carrying out the work, provided that the cost has been reasonably incurred. The aggregate of the grants which may be paid is not to exceed £4 million, but there is provision for securing Parliamentary approval to raise this figure to £5 million if necessary. Bearing in mind that the industry would have to provide an equal amount of money, this sum, according to the best estimate that


can be made, represents as much expenditure as is likely to be undertaken in schemes submitted within the five years presribed by the Bill.
Clause 3 specifies who is to be entitled to submit improvement schemes for approval and how the schemes are to be framed, and requires the Minister to satisfy himself that those making the proposals are in a position to see them carried out. It also provides for the completion of schemes, even though the parties originally responsible are succeeded by others before the work is finished. I think that was an essential provision to put in the Bill. The grants that we are going to make to the industry for rehabilitation must, of course, be investments, as it were, in the hill farming land of this country, and must not be interfered with by a mere change of ownership or tenancy.
A scheme may be revoked or varied under the powers granted in Clauses 4 and 5 at the instance of and by agreement with the parties concerned, or, if necessary, in the public interest. In the latter case, if it be necessary to revoke or vary a scheme in the public interest, the Minister must first consult those responsible for the scheme and also the appropriate advisory committee which will be set up under the Bill when it becomes an Act. Where a scheme is revoked or varied in the public interest there is provision for the payment of appropriate compensation. That seems to be a fair way of doing it.
Clause 6 gives further powers of revocation or variation to deal with cases where work has been badly done or unduly delayed, or is unlikely to be completed, and where, as a result, the satisfactory completion of the scheme of improvement is prejudiced. In those cases there is provision for recovering part or all of the grants paid.
Under Clause 7 grants may be reduced or withheld or, indeed, recovered where a tenant or an owner who is a party to an improvement scheme has failed to fulfil his customary obligations under the rules of good husbandry or in accordance with the practice of good estate management.
Clause 8 extends to work done under an improvement scheme the safeguard for

both tenant and landlord which are contained in the Agricultural Holdings Acts, and is also designed to prevent either party securing improper advantage by way of compensation or rent out of the grants paid by the State.
Clauses 9 and 10 will only apply to England and Wales. They deal with common grazings. It seems very appropriate to afford the same measure of assistance to common grazings. We do not have them to any large extent in Scotland so it is not intended to apply these provisions to Scotland. I do not think the House would want me to deal with that at any great length, but no doubt if any hon. Members want to discuss the matter the Minister will be able to reply to any points raised at the end of the discussions.
The next part of the Bill gives powers for framing subsidy schemes for hill sheep and cattle for a period of five years on the lines of those which have been operated during the war years. That seems to be a necessary thing to do during the interim period when the effect of this Bill is showing itself. It is recognised by the Government that the policy of rehabilitation enshrined in this Bill is of a long-term character, and that it will take some time before any substantial advantages accrue. It is, therefore, necessary, I think, to have this period of five years when the present subsidy schemes will be continued in practice. Then again, in the interest of wartime food production, it was found necessary to take certain powers under the Defence Regulations to control the keeping of rams in hill areas in England and Wales so as to prevent indiscriminate cross breeding and interference with breeding arrangements generally. This Measure has already led to a noticeable improvement in hill flocks in Wales and elsewhere, although particularly in Wales. It is considered necessary to take permanent powers to exercise similar control in the future as a means of raising the general standard of efficiency of hill farming. The Clauses containing these provisions apply only to England and Wales.
There are further Clauses dealing with heather burning and applying to England and Wales. The adequately controlled burning of heather and grass under proper safeguards is now regarded as being of the greatest importance to the cultural


operations which can be undertaken on hill farms, and Clause 18 provides for the first time for the statutory control of the burning of heather and grass in England and Wales by giving power to the Minister of Agriculture to make regulations to prohibit or control burning. Clause 19 will enable him to permit burning if he considers it desirable in cases where it would otherwise be forbidden by the terms of the lease or covenant. In Scotland we have had Heather Burning Acts before. There, " muirburn " as the burning of heather and grass is termed, has been regulated in the past by the Heather Burning Act of 1926. This was modified by the Defence Regulations during the war period and it is proposed now that the Act of 1926 shall be repealed and that Clauses 20 to 25 of this Bill shall operate in its place. The main changes proposed are a simplification in the general procedure and a strengthening of the safeguards to be adopted to obviate damage by uncontrolled burning. Where a programme of heather burning over a period of years has been approved as part of an improvement scheme, the procedure to be followed will be still further simplified. The heather burning provisions of this Bill for both countries are intended to be permanent.
I come now to the rather complicated question of the valuation of bound sheep stocks in Scotland. The method of valuation of these bound sheep stocks has for long given rise to a serious concern. There has too often been a material degree of inflation or exaggeration in the value put upon flocks. In the result there has been a serious element of over capitalisation of the industry. Experience has shown that the Sheep Stocks Valuation (Scotland) Act, 1937, has not had the effect which it was hoped it would have in moderating the values placed on sheep, and the Balfour of Burleigh Committee felt that the position was so bad and had such an important bearing on the economic welfare of the industry that they recommended early amendment of the law. Clauses 26 to 29, together with the Second Schedule to the Bill are, therefore, designed to amend that Act of 1937, and closely follow the recommendations of the Balfour of Burleigh Committee. The general purpose of the changes is to secure that under all leases entered into after the passing of this Act, the valuations placed

upon a bound sheep stock will have close relation to its real value as a commercial asset. I am afraid that, up to now, the valuations that have been placed upon bound sheep stocks have not borne a very close relation to their real value as a commercial asset. Owing to the differences in the system of tenure, these problems, I understand, do not arise to any significant degree in England and Wales, nor indeed in Northern Ireland, and it is not proposed, therefore, to make similar provisions for England and Wales and Northern Ireland.
Clause 30 provides for the setting up of central advisory committees, one in Scotland and another in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, which will have a sub-committee for Wales and Monmouth. In so far as the proposals for rehabilitation are concerned, it is realised that Ministers will require to rely to a very large extent on local knowledge and advice, and they will probably find it advantageous to delegate certain functions to local committees. Clause 31 provides for the creation of committees of this kind. Clause 32 gives the Minister power to authorise entry to and inspection of land, a very necessary corollary to the proper exercise of his duty to approve proposals for improvement schemes and to satisfy himself as to their progress. The remaining Clauses of the Bill are purely formal.
That concludes my résumé of the scope and purpose of the Bill now before the House. It only remains for me to emphasise that the Government regard this Bill as a charter for hill farming. They have been deeply impressed with the serious nature of the problems facing this important branch of agriculture and so ably described in the reports to which I have already referred. The Government regard it as a matter of vital national importance to inaugurate a long-term policy of rehabilitation and improvement with a view to placing hill farming in a sound productive condition and able to stand on its own feet. In their view, that is what this Bill will go a long way to achieve. Some sections of hill sheep farming can never again be brought into a satisfactory economic condition at any reasonable cost, but will probably prove eminently suitable for afforestation. Nevertheless, a substantial proportion of the industry can be reconditioned and re-equipped, and brought back to a more productive and more efficient state. There


is every reason to believe that production and output can be maintained and, I should imagine, increased in the future from a rather smaller but more efficient hill farming industry. The Government are offering substantial assistance in this Bill towards that end, but in order that this policy shall be a success there must be a wholehearted response from the industry itself. Owners and farmers must be prepared to make an effective contribution to their own rehabilitation. It is a long term task; it will require courage and vision to see it through. Unless it is undertaken, it is quite certain that we shall lose a great deal of what is a vital part of British farming, and also an important contribution to our national food production.

4.46 p.m.

Mr. Snadden: I think everyone will agree that the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has given the House a very extensive, although I am not sure whether I would say very clear, account of the main features of this important Bill to which we on this side of the House will give our support. In passing, I would say that I think the hon. Gentleman seemed a little apprehensive as to whether he would receive the same measure of support from hon. Members opposite. I would like to say how astonished I was to hear what he had to say about cottages. He referred to a change in the Schedule. Surely, he must be aware that throughout the hill lands of Scotland he will have to go a very long way before he will find any cottages that are not tied. It is in my recollection, also, that we received this Bill from the Vote Office on 18th February, and one would have imagined that by that time the Government would have made up their minds about their housing policy.
Turning to the general question, I think it is common knowledge among all those who take an interest in agricultural affairs that although the returns in respect of most branches of agriculture under existing conditions are today quite adequate, hill sheep farming has been in a very depressed condition for many years. From my experience, I have found that the returns have been unduly low. In the majority of instances they have been entirely non-existent, and it is no exaggeration to say that without the assistance

granted by the Government during the war —which, after all, was granted in order to offset the lack of controlled prices in respect of hill products, as they are store products, and not finished products—many hill farmers could not have carried on at all. The mere fact that for many years scores of hill farms could not find tenants, and, further, that two-fifths of our Scottish hill farms—I speak mainly of Scotland, of which I have a little knowledge—are occupied by tenants on a year to year basis, is in itself sufficient evidence of the depressed state of this industry. We in Scotland have a very big stake in sheep farming. No less than two-thirds of the entire surface of our country is devoted to this industry; 60 per cent, of our total sheep stocks are hill sheep as against 20 per cent, to 25 per cent, in England, and a significant indication of the importance of this industry is that in terms of value in gross agricultural output, the; value of the production of the Scottish hills is very nearly equal to the value of our production of milk.
With the single exception of afforestation, the only contribution which this land can make to the national wealth is through the breeding of cattle and sheep. In Scotland, 16,000 farmers are engaged in this business. They produce about 1,000,000 lambs per annum, 10,000,000 lbs. of wool, and 400,000 cast ewes. Anyone who has read the admirable Reports of the Balfour of Burleigh Committee and the De La Warr Committee must be astonished to find to what depths this important industry had sunk, and how precarious had become the living of these hill farmers. The Balfour of Burleigh Committee Report, with which I am the more familiar because it deals with Scotland, paints the gloomiest picture imaginable. It states that the fertility of the past has gone and that this industry is doomed to die a slow death from sheer exhaustion unless the State and industry can combine to restore it.
If we nationalised the land tomorrow all that would happen would be that the State would have to pay the whole cost instead of half. But the Balfour Committee could not produce a magic remedy; there is no magic carpet by which the hill farmer can be whisked away to his economic heaven. On the contrary, he has a very long and weary road in front of him. New methods


will have to be applied in the form of research and hard work. There will have to be a revolutionary change of outlook on the part of the farmer himself and of many engaged in the industry. And finally very considerable capital expenditure will be absolutely necessary.
The alternative is to abandon vast areas of our hill land to forest land or sport, which to me is quite unthinkable. The former Secretary of State for Scotland and my right hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) did a real service to the community in setting up the two Committees to which I have referred. After a long time deliberating they produced two first class reports. I would like to pay my personal tribute to the Balfour Report, with which I am very familiar. This Bill is simply an attempt to implement their main recommendations, and by so doing, to ameliorate and, if possible, sweep away the deplorable state of affairs to which they have drawn attention, and finally to establish this industry on an economic footing. The broad aim is to restore fertility thus to increase stock carrying capacity, and by so doing to increase the volume of output from the hills, bringing costs down to an economic level. We all know that output has been falling for years, whereas costs' have been rising. At the present level of wages in the agricultural industry, although we are all glad to see that level where it is, it is a very serious thing for hill farmers, who have not very much revenue coming in, to have to meet present wages. I would sum up this aspect by saying that the aim of the Bill is to eliminate the necessity for the existing subsidy.
Generally speaking, I find that this Bill has been welcomed throughout the country. But there are some points in it which are open to criticism. We on this side of the House feel we could improve it in certain details; in addition to which there are some fairly important omissions vis-à-vis the two reports to which I have referred. I will mention only one omission, into which I do not intend to go in detail, namely, in connection with transport. I understand some of my hon. Friends will refer to that. It is a very important point. Transport rates are excessive in the remote areas, and unless something can be done to equalise them and bring them to a lower level, it will affect adversely not only the actual carriage of stock but also the material required

for the necessary improvements under this Bill. I feel the Bill is perhaps a little less bold in its main approach than the Balfour Report. It is less bold in its approach to the main remedy of improvement schemes. The Joint Under-Secretary referred to compulsion. The House will recall that the Balfour Committee recommended that the schemes should be obligatory. This Bill seeks voluntary cooperation. I dislike compulsion in any shape or form, but I am bound to take into account what I consider a vital matter in this respect, namely, the important question of whether one can reasonably expect that the assistance offered under this Bill will be taken advantage of on a scale sufficiently wide to ensure that the deterioration referred to by the two expert committees can be overtaken. I admit, quite frankly, I am inclined to doubt whether that result can be achieved on a voluntary basis.
I am afraid of isolated schemes. I do not believe isolated scheme.—can solve so gigantic a problem, where whole regions—vast tracts of land—are involved. For example, what would happen if in an area in which an improvement scheme was being carried out disease was next door and that holding stood outside the Bill? That is an important consideration. However, I remember that during the war we witnessed a remarkable effort on the part of the agricultural community; a story of cooperation. That spirit of cooperation was a marked feature throughout the war. Therefore, taking into account the shortage of labour, and the fact that few schemes may be possible within the next few years, I have come to the conclusion—although I have expressed my personal fears—that it may be better to keep this Bill on an experimental basis. I would give this warning. If we have isolated schemes, this Bill will fail. Therefore, we should base our effort upon encouraging cooperation between proprietor and tenant to the maximum possible extent. In any event, whether the schemes are voluntary or obligatory, cheap credit will be absolutely essential. There is very little money in this industry, which I know pretty well. It will be extremely difficult, if not quite impossible, to put up even the 50 per cent, required in many cases.
I am aware that certain facilities now exist. Certain facilities are offered in regard to Scotland by the Scottish Agricultural Securities Corporation, in respect


of major improvements of the kind covered by this Bill. Not being a lawyer, when I looked at the pamphlet in regard to it, I was not able to tell whether the corporation, in fact, can advance money against these schemes, as it operates under the Improvements of Lands Acts of 1864 and 1899. It is most desirable, therefore, that the Minister should make clear that loans will be available from this source, and what the terms of the loans will be. The widest possible publicity should be given to such an announcement, because the success or failure of this Measure may well depend upon cheap credits to the people who are to carry out the schemes. The Joint Under-Secretary did not mention the question of the amount of the money available. On the general question of the amount of money available, namely, £4,000,000 plus £1,000,000 with Treasury consent, I am bound to say I look upon it as being a rather timid approach. It does not look to me like a real attack upon the problem we are facing. It rather suggests that the Government are not aware of the gigantic nature of the problem. The Balfour Committee recommended that £15,000,000 would have to be spent over a term of 15 years if this industry was to be saved. This Bill deals with only £4,000,000 plus £1,000,000.

Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: For the United Kingdom.

Mr. Snadden: My hon. Friend is quite right. The Balfour Committee's Report recommended that £15,000,000 should be spent on Scotland alone. This Bill puts up £5,000,000 for the whole country.

Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: What period was that money in respect of, in each case?

Mr. Snadden: The Balfour Committee estimated that £15,000,000 would have to be spent over a period of 15 years for Scotland alone. This Bill gives £4,000,000, plus £1,000,000 if the Treasury consents, for the whole country.

Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Over five years.

Mr. Snadden: I do not think that is anything like a big enough sum. I am bound to ask the Minister if the answer is that the Government feel that a vast area of land is not really worth improving.

Is it the view of the Government that great areas now included in our sheep farming economy are to be taken over for afforestation? The hon. Gentleman said something about afforestation, but he did not make one important point clear in that regard. What farmers want to know is what land is to be afforested, to what extent and where. When they see the small amount mentioned in this Bill they begin to fear about the economic future of the industry. I would therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman if he can tell us when he replies what is in his mind in this respect. The farmers want to know where they stand in regard to afforestation.
Next I would like to ask how the money is to be allocated as between Scotland, England and Wales. Is there to be a tug-of-war between the Scottish, English and Welsh Members, with the Chancellor of the Exchequer acting as referee, or what is to happen? Further, is there to be any ceiling in regard to individual schemes? When we look at the Schedule and see that improvements such as cottages, access roads, shelter belts and so on—all of them very expensive—are included, in view of the small total available we wonder whether some ceiling is to be imposed on individual schemes, and I would like to know what the policy is in that respect.
I come next to a question which is troubling farmers in the North. I cannot speak for fanners South of the Border, but it is troubling farmers in the North, and it is a question to which I have given very close study. I mean security of tenure. Under this Bill three points seem to me to arise, which must be squarely faced by anybody who wants to see agriculture prosper. The first is that the State must have an adequate guarantee that money expended by the State is justifiably spent. Second the proprietor must have a similar prospect that his expenditure will be justified by the continuance of good husbandry on the part of the tenant. Last, but by no means least, the tenant, before agreeing to and perhaps participating in a scheme, will want an assurance of his continued occupancy of the land, quite apart from any compensation that may be due to him under the Agricultural Holdings Acts. We must try to solve that problem if this Bill is to be a success. There is no


security that an improvement scheme will not be wasted because of lack of continuity. There is no security for the landlord to justify his proceeding with the scheme, and there is no security for the tenant, who may be faced with the necessity of taking up a new tenancy at a possibly enhanced rent.
To meet all three points it would seem to me to be absolutely essential, at any rate in Scotland, where some 40 per cent, of tenants are on a year to year tenancy, that proposals in respect of improvement schemes should be accompanied by an offer on behalf of the proprietor to enter into a long lease. Where a tenant refuses such an offer, which is quite possible, it will be reasonable for the proprietor to make a contract with another tenant who is willing to cooperate. I feel convinced that, unless schemes under this Bill are tied up with long leases, many tenants will be reluctant to participate in them, and I think that will be bad. Every encouragement should be given to securing the maximum cooperation between proprietor and tenant.
I would now say a word about heather burning—it is indeed a burning question which, I find, is causing some dissatisfaction in my particular county. We have to admit that the neglect of heather burning is one of the major reasons for the vast deterioration in our hill grazing. The Bill goes a fair way to improve matters but in my opinion it does not go far enough. I have a fair experience of this type of farming and I have found that old rank heather left too long encourages bracken and also the fatal tick disease, and should be systematically burned. We have also to take into account that adequate safeguards against indiscriminate burning are necessary. Tenants do not like to fall out with the proprietors, and I find in Perthshire, one of the largest hill farming districts in the country, that this reluctance is preventing adequate burning.
The provision which is now in the Bill applied during the war, and did not work well. There seem to me to be two possible methods of solving this problem; one would be to delete Clause 22 altogether, and place the onus on the proprietor who, if he desired, could before a date to be agreed upon, refer the whole question to the Minister, who in consultation with the local committee would then draw up a scheme. The other way would be to

remove the right of objection on the part of the proprietor in regard to heather over a given age. At first I thought that this was a good idea, and I still think it Is not bad, but it would involve putting a Schedule into the Bill specifying the different ages of heather over different counties and that might be rather difficult. Greater freedom to burn than is contained in this Bill would seem to be desirable, however, if real cooperation between proprietor and tenant is to be secured and hill grazing improved, which is what we all want. It is probable, therefore, that an Amendment will be submitted in Committee by myself and some of my hon. Friends on this point.
In passing to the next part of the Bill, I will like to say a word or two on what the hon. Gentleman said about our cattle stocks in the North. I do not think he quite grasped the real idea behind our hill cattle scheme. Statutory powers are taken in this Bill to continue both forms of assistance to hill farming, the hill cattle scheme and the hill subsidy scheme, and I think it is common knowledge—it is certainly informed agricultural opinion—that there is room for a tremendous expansion of cattle breeding in the hills. Anyone who has read the Balfour Report will know that again and again it is suggested that we must return to the old economy of 150 years ago. So interested was I in this point, that I searched back to see what did happen 150 years ago. I find that in Scotland there were 150,000 cattle in the Hebrides, and 30,000 store cattle went annually to the mainland. There were 44,000 cattle in Orkney and Shetland, and 25,000 stores went from Galloway to Norwich every year. We must get back to the economy of those days, but it cannot be done on a year to year basis. Hence I urge the Government to take the opportunity now of announcing boldly that this scheme, which is on a year to year basis and in regard to which statutory powers are contained in this Bill, will be continued at any rate for five years, on a level at least not lower than it is today. That would, in my opinion, give confidence to the hill farmers to go ahead, and the dividend to the country would in the end be substantial, in the form of increased meat alone not to speak of great benefit to grazing.
The last point I want to make on the Bill is in regard to committees. The hon.


Gentleman mentioned administration, but I do not think he went into it in sufficient detail. I would ask him for a little more information about that. We on this side of the House feel we should like further information regarding the advisory and local committees to be set up under this Bill. We want to know how members of these bodies are to be chosen. Are they to be chosen from panels submitted by agricultural organisations, or are they to be nominated by those organisations? We should like to know what is to happen in that respect. Further, we want to know what will be their precise function. In Scotland, in the case of the local committee, what is to be its relationship to the new area or regional committees the Government are to set up under their general agricultural policy? If these committees are, in fact, to be the sub-committees of the area or the regional committees to which reference was made by the Minister in this House some time ago, then it seems to me that care must be taken to see that people qualified to advise on this type of industry are included in those sub-committees. If we can be told something about that, we shall be obliged.
I have finished with what I wanted to say about the Bill, but I should like to put in a last word on a different note altogether and on an aspect which, in my view, is just as important as those to which I have been referring. In dealing with the industry in Scotland and, for that matter, in England and Wales also, it would be a terrible mistake to imagine that this Bill alone can solve the problem of this industry. This Bill deals only with the technical or farm management aspect of the problem of increasing the volume of output. It does not deal with the economic aspect, or what we are to do with that output once we have got it. To rear two lambs where formerly one was reared, and not to get a market for them both, would be to throw money away. Unless there is a greater measure of economic stability assured in the future than in the past the benefits of this scheme will be lost and the money to be expended will be wasted. The De La Warr Report on page 4 states:
 science can point to ways of better land use and development, and of improving the health, hardiness and management of stock. It cannot take the place of a stable price system.

We have to bear in mind that the assurances given to farmers under the Government's long-term price policy only apply to finished commodities. There is no such provision for the products of our hill farms, because they are the raw materials. That produce is uncontrolled and, curiously enough, the only agricultural commodity that I can think of at this moment that has been left out of the list of guaranteed prices is wool, one of the main products of the hills. So that in this industry, the economic aspect is just as important as any technical programme. Anyone who has followed the ups and downs of the industry and tried to find out why we have had great slumps will have found that the devastating slumps that we have known in the past, in 1932 and, again, in 193S, were caused by excess of low ground slaughtering of sheep, coinciding with abnormal imports from abroad. That was why we got slumps in the past. Unless these two factors are looked after and the price is right the money to be expended under this Bill will be wasted and all the work will be in vain.
In conclusion. I would say that the future of this industry will depend on three things; first, increased stock-carrying capacity, at which this Bill rightly aims, because it lowers cost; second, the postwar agricultural policy of the right hon. Gentleman in terms of the economic trend on the low ground; and third, control of imports. No one of these alone is sufficient. All of them are essential to a proper policy in regard to this matter; and if the Government wish to insure against the greatest enemy of this industry—gluts—they should examine a policy for the encouragement of " weather sheep."I need not explain what that means—keeping sheep longer on the hills. Then we should not get the gluts in the autumn that we have had in the past. It should be possible also, in connection with our housing programme, and in the provision of upholstery and furnishing in connection with that programme, to find a better market for our home grown wool. I welcome this Bill with the qualifications I have made. I feel that it goes a long way towards solving the technical part of the problem. It is a major step forward towards the rehabilitation of a great industry and, incidentally, it should be of immense value in seeking to preserve, not only our hill sheep flocks of which we


should be proud, but also the fine type of men who make their living by raising them.

5.17 p.m.

Mr. Kenyon: I understand it is the custom of this House that when a Member speaks upon a Bill in which he has a personal interest, he should declare that interest at the outset of his remarks. Speaking as a hill sheep farmer, I must say that I may be interested in this Bill when it becomes an Act. But I want the House to feel that I do not enter into this Debate from any personal point of view, but in order that I may contribute something of my experience to the discussion of the Bill as it is before the House.
I find myself so much in agreement with so many of the things said by the hon. Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden), that I do not want to follow exactly the same lines. But I must say I am profoundly disappointed with this Bill, because I feel that the task of the rehabilitation of hill farming, a task which is so comprehensive and so gigantic, is dealt with in this Bill in a most cursory and desultory fashion. This Bill does not go to the root of the matter, and unless the Minister is going to bring forward long-term agricultural policy with features that will cover the failings of this Bill, then I say the Measure will fail completely in its aims. I feel that the Government have here a tremendous opportunity for a great, courageous and ambitious programme to rehabilitate hill farming once and for all in the history of the agriculture of this country. From that point of view this Bill is a miserable failure. I feel that £5,000,000 spread over the whole country is just like a drop in the bucket when one realises the tremendous problem of hill farming as it has been outlined by the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland and the hon. Member for West Perth. On the hill farms of this country we have the foundation land for the growing of healthy stock, beef and mutton, to feed the lowlands of the country.
This Bill follows the line of what is nothing more or less than extended subsidies, and continues the artificial development of agriculture which has been operating during the war. We are no longer at war, but at peace, and we need now to build up agriculture on a sound foundation.
I will try to outline to the House what I consider to be a sound foundation for agriculture, including hill farming. We recognise the poverty of this land, and the financial distress of both the farmers and the landlords. We recognise that this has been continuing for a good many years, and that the position is deplorable. No farmer or landlord in this position will be able to take part in the operations of this Bill. It is impossible for them to do so if they have not the money. The farmer will have to borrow the money when he puts forward his scheme, and then he will have to pay interest upon the capital. It will be an additional burden on his present resources, which we have already been told are inadequate to meet current expenses on buildings, hedges and so forth. Unless farmers and landlords can obtain interest-free loans, they will be in a very difficult position in the future. I cannot see this Bill operating, because the precarious position of the industry will not enable it to bear this additional burden. The interest and sinking fund on the loans will put the farmers and the landlords in a more hopeless position than they are in at the present time.
To my mind this Bill bears all the hallmarks of orthodox finance. One of the reasons for the agricultural depression in the past has been that the banks would loan money only on what they considered to be security. They would lend money on buildings and land, but if a farmer tried to borrow money to buy more stock, he was told that there was no security in stock—he can buy stock one week and sell it the next. I believe that during the last Parliament a Bill was passed in order to include stock as security. This Bill adds burden to burden.
In my opinion rehabilitation of hill farming will depend on three things, it will depend, first, upon the division of farms into economic units. I do not speak of Scotland, because I have had no experience of Scotland, and there are sufficient Scottish Members to make their voices heard for that country. I am speaking from my experience in England, where there are so many small hill farms which can never be made economically sound. We shall have to develop economic farm units in every part of the country. I know that this is a very difficult point, but in the Balfour Report it is stated that an economic unit in hill-


sheep farming must be 400 to 600 ewes. I know that that figure will not apply to England. In my opinion we shall need to have in this country an economic unit of not less than 300 acres. Mr. J. R. Phillips, of the Department of Agricultural Economics, University of Wales, has carried out an investigation on land holdings, and in dealing with the hill farms of Wales, he states:
 Not until acreages amount to 2,000 to 3,000 acres can the farm incomes grow big enough to provide a satisfactory livelihood for families.
That is a tremendous figure. I quote it to show that in England, Scotland and Wales, whatever the economic unit may be, there must be an economic farm unit before one can deal with this problem satisfactorily.
Here is where the element of compulsion comes in. I do not like compulsion, and I do not know any farmer who likes it, but unless compulsion is brought to bear to create economic farming units, this Bill will fail. Suppose we take an area where there are 20, 30 or 40 small farms, and the agricultural executive committee decide that in that area there should be a farm of 200 to 300 acres. Unless we can have the voluntary acquiescence of all those fanners, we cannot have an economic unit. Compulsion is essential, otherwise one man out of a dozen can ruin a whole scheme. Compulsion ought to be brought into this scheme, if it is to succeed. Subsidies are not new to farmers, and especially to hill farmers. Hill farms in England have been subsidised by the wages of the children for many years. Farmers have taken farms where the units are too small, and they have been too small for the last 50 or 100 years. As the children have grown up, they have been sent off the farms into the mills, and a great loss to agriculture has ensued because they have not returned to the land. Unless we can deal with this problem from the economic standpoint, it will become more acute in the future.
Secondly, there must be price stabilisation. Both the Balfour and De La Warr Reports emphasise the necessity for price stabilisation. The previous disasters to hill farms and to agriculture generally have been due to the precariousness of prices. Speaking for myself, I have sold hill lambs at 7s. each, and wool at 3½d. a lb.—and one never knew that the

price would not be less the following year. Today we have the price stabilisation of war conditions, but a definite price stabilisation policy will have to be included, if the hill farms are to prosper in future.
Thirdly, I want to deal with what I consider to be a grave lack in the Bill, namely, the question of research. Research is emphasised in these reports. It is essential from many points of view. Deterioration of hill land and lack of fertility need something more than subsidies. During the war, we dealt very successfully with such questions as reseeding, and I feel that, so far as the hill farms are concerned, that should be greatly extended. Research is needed into the fertility of the land, into reseeding, into plant cultivation on the higher altitudes; and especially veterinary research into hill sheep diseases. Research is also required into the type of hill sheep. Some of my Scottish friends tell me that if their ewes produce 85 per cent, lambs they are satisfied. If our ewes produce less than 150, we begin to get trouble. We should reach one and a half lambs per ewe. So far as the hill sheep of Scotland are concerned, I feel that a great deal of research is required. Many of those farms are not carrying the proper type of stock, and I understand that, as a result of research carried out, individual farmers have introduced better breeds of sheep and are successful with them.
I believe that it is necessary, from the condition of the industry as put before us in these reports, for the State to take over the land. The burden is already too great for both tenant and landlord for this scheme to be properly operated. There was some indication, in both of these reports, that the State should take over certain parts of the land. The England and Wales Report stated:
The State is becoming the owner of large areas of hill land. In addition, there are the estates likely to be taken over by voluntary or compulsory purchase from owners who are unable or unwilling to carry out necessary schemes of improvement.
State purchase is also indicated in the Scottish report. I say, not from a political point of view but from a practical point of view, that the burden is so great that hill fanning cannot be placed on its feet economically unless the State takes over the whole of this hill farming land. The reports visualise that if it is not taken over, then it must


be controlled. There must be unified control. To quote the England and Wales Report again:
In our view a prerequisite to particular proposals for the improvement of hill farming is some degree of unified control of all hill land. The alternative would seem to be a piecemeal series of separate and possibly overlapping schemes of financial and other forms of assistance.
That is exactly what is going to happen under this Bill, unless there is unified control; and that can only come compulsorily. Unless we have unified control, and compulsion, and unless there is State ownership of the hill land, this scheme will fail.

5.35 p.m.

Sir Hugh O'Neill: I do not intend to follow the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) in his references to State control and nationalisation of the hill farming industry, except to say that I cannot imagine any other industry in this country which contains a greater amount of independence, individual initiative and individual enterprise. I should have thought that it is one of the very last industries which would have benefited in any possible way by the dead hand of State control, which the hon. Member has indicated as being, in his view, the future of this industry.
I should like, as a very old Member of this House, to congratulate the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland on the admirable and charming way in which he introduced this Bill. It is, as he said, a most important Measure for the great industry of hill farming. It is based on the recent Reports of the Balfour Committee for Scotland and the De La Warr Committee for England and Wales. I, like my hon. Friend the Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden), was mainly interested in the Report of the Scottish Committee. It starts by tracing the history of this industry and it shows how, in the latter half of the 18th century, the South country sheep farmers began to take up land in the Highlands and turn it into sheep farms, thus ousting the small farmers, or crofters, who had formerly populated the Highlands and grazed cattle on the hills. Large numbers of these people migrated, and, in the place of the once large populations in the glens, there came a few shepherds. This large scale sheep farming was fairly successful for a hundred years, but since about

1870 it has gradually declined. The grazing of sheep on the hills of the United Kingdom has probably gone on uninterrupted for thousands of years. On my own hill farm in the county of Antrim, St. Patrick is reputed to have been a shepherd on the mountain tops, and I have no reason to doubt it.
Countless millions of sheep must have been born, grown up and lived their lives nourished by the grass and heather. During all that time, nothing has been put back into the soil in the form of fertilisers or manures. The hill land has become gradually impoverished and lost its fertility, but manuring on a large scale, considering the large tracts of country involved, is an impossible operation. The Balfour Committee suggest the possibility of scattering manure on the hills from aeroplanes, and I hope that this will be investigated by the Government. Another method of manuring the hill grazing might be by the general feeding of sheep. A few years before the war the Ministry of Agriculture of the Government of Northern Ireland adopted some experiments in the mineral feeding of sheep. The farmers were given mineral cubes provided they would carry out certain experiments with them on behalf of the Government. I took some myself for my sheep farm. I gave them to the sheep and they ate them with avidity during the winter. The idea is that these cubes contain the minerals which are beneficial to the land and which get spread over the land through the droppings of the sheep. It seems to me that is a possible method of manuring these hill farms and should be further investigated.
Hill farming is precarious farming. There are far more difficulties to be faced than farming on the lower land. The hon. Member for Chorley said that he remembered selling lambs at 7s. each and wool at 3½d. I remember selling lambs at 5s., and, in the depression of 1929 to 1932, selling wool at 2½d. That merely shows the kind of depression through which this industry has passed during recent years. It is a precarious industry. One of the great enemies is severe weather in the winter, including snow falls and snow drifts. I have myself after heavy snowstorms been out on the hills with the shepherds and their dogs searching for sheep buried in the snow drifts. The dogs show the shepherd where the


sheep ore, and when he conies to them he may find a dozen, 15 or 20 buried in 15 or 20 feet of snow. The extraordinary thing is that as the hill farmer knows, sheep under those conditions will live for ten days. Even so, if the snow comes before the sheep have been gathered in and they are spread over the hills the losses are very great. Then sheep farmers have to face vermin. Foxes take quite a severe toll of the lambs, and birds like the grey crows do appalling damage. I myself can give a personal incident of a grey crow. I have seen a lamb alive after having been cast down with both its eyes eaten by the grey crow. That lamb was saved by the shepherd. It was subsequently brought up and nourished and became a ewe. It had a lamb every year for about seven years, but that was an exception. These grey crows eat out the eyes of living lambs and are merely an example of some of the terrible depredations from vermin that the sheep farmer has to face.
There is the well-known disease louping-ill braxy or that extraordinary disease liver fluke which is caused by a parasite, which, at some period of its existence, has to pass its life within the body of a certain type of snail. Liver fluke comes from the wet ground, and in my part of the country it is almost the worst of all the diseases we have to face. Then we have lamb dysentry, and, of course, maggots due to the blowfly laying its eggs in the wool of the living sheep. The maggots hatch, and unless the sheep are properly treated the maggots eat their way into its body and then it dies.
Though this industry is precarious, it is a splendid life and it produces as fine a body of men and women as are to be found anywhere in the world. The shepherd's life may be lonely at times, but how infinitely better than the cramped life of the dweller of the towns. He spends much of his time alone with nature, but in what glorious surroundings. He hears no sound, but the bleating of the sheep and the lambs, the cry of the curlew and the plover, the croak of the raven, the crowing of the cock grouse and always the sound of running water. In most cases he lives a life amongst the glorious hills and glens surrounded by the purple and russet brown tints of the heather and the bracken. His time is his own as long as he tends his sheep He is a free man, bis-

hours of working depending on the tasks he has to do—light in some periods of the year, heavy in others—and all day long he breathes the clear undiluted air of
heaven.
Such is the industry which was in dire straits before the war. War conditions have brought some improvement through better prices for wool and ewes, but this improvement may be only a flash in the pan in default of some definite policy in the future. It is that policy which this Bill is attempting. It will help, but as has already been said, it will not cure the trouble. Four million pounds with a possible rise to £5 million for these land improvement schemes will not see the thing through, nor do I think that half and half share in expenditure between Government and farmer gives sufficient inducement to the farmer to put up the money as my hon. Friend the Member for West Perth said.

Mr. Alpass: How much would the right hon. Member suggest?

Sir H. O'Neill: The Balfour of Burleigh Committee suggested 60 per cent, by the Government and 40 per cent, by the farmer, and I do not really know why the Government reduced that to half and half. In any case, they must provide some method by which the farmer can obtain the money which he will need to put up for his half of the scheme by establishing credit facilities and so on. I should like also to ask, as was asked by the hon. Member for West Perth, how this money is to be allocated between the different parts of the United Kingdom. Will it be according to the sheep population, according to the acreage, according to the value of the product, or what? Are the grants to be subject to Income Tax? We know that the ploughing-up grant is to be subject to this tax, but will the grants made under this Bill be subject to Income Tax?
I would like to ask about the committees to be set up under Clause 30. I see there is to be one committee, apparently a joint body, for England, Wales and Northern Ireland, with a sub-committee for Wales. Is there not to be a sub-committee for Northern Ireland? With regard to the types of farms which will come under this Bill, I have in mind the sort of farm which exists in my part of the country, where there are 2,000 to 4,000


acres of hill land and, contiguous to that the farmhouse, farm buildings and a certain acreage of tilled land, where the farmer grows his hay, his oats, and probably some potatoes, and on which he keeps his poultry and pigs. Will that land come within the definition of a hill farm? Will that farmer be entitled to receive a grant in respect of, say, renewing his old farm buildings or erecting new buildings? Will he be entitled to receive a grant for machinery, such as a reaper and binder, to help with the corn harvest? Will that farmer's land, as a whole, come within the purview of this Bill? This Measure will certainly help the hill farming industry to a considerable extent, and I hope it will pass the House today and become an Act of Parliament without undue delay.

5.52 p.m.

Mr. Scott-Elliot: It is an old and very proper custom of this House for Members to declare their interest in any matter concerning which they may wish to address the House. I therefore wish to begin by declaring that I have such an interest, although it may not be a very substantial one in view of the fact that the land I own and farm is in a relatively good condition. Be that as it may, I would like to say, without prejudice to the issue of nationalisation, which I would ultimately welcome in respect of agricultural land, that as an interim Measure I believe this Bill to be absolutely essential for rehabilitating the farm lands of this country. Clearly, I cannot, in a short speech such as is proper for a back bench Member to deliver, cover the complete ambit of this Bill. But there are, perhaps, one or two broad propositions I can put forward, and which I can reinforce with points of detail such as may perhaps be of interest to those Members who are less well acquainted with hill farming.
My first proposition is this: Here is an industry which is not easy to understand. It is very difficult to understand, unless one has been closely and personally associated with it. Moreover, it is an industry which differs greatly in various parts of the country. My hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) referred just now to hill sheep farms of 300 acres or less. In the Border counties of Scotland we would think that any hill sheep farm which was less than 1,500 acres was too small. In other words, in

one part of the country you have one set of circumstances where the land is relatively fertile, and in our part of the country you have land which is less fertile, so that you need a larger farm to make it an economic unit. Further, the rents of these farms differ enormously. I believe that the ordinary low ground farms rent at 20s. or 30s. or more per acre, but in the county of Ross I believe I am right in saying that hill farms are let at 4d. per acre, and that in our Border counties of Scotland the average run of rents is 2s. to 3s. 6d. per acre. Thus, it is very dangerous to generalise, and that is the first point I wish to make.
My second proposition is this: Here is a substantial industry which is of great importance to our national economy. As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has already explained, it is an industry which covers 16,000,000 acres and which, I understand, contains 4,750,000 breeding ewes, who will be carried on hills through the winter months when fertility is at its lowest level, Hill sheep farms provide not merely mea': and wool, but also something which may be far less obvious. They contribute very substantially to the fertility of farming on the low ground. That is because in August and September we sell off store lambs and in October we sell off cast ewes. They are bought by the low ground farmers, and are fed on turnips or rape: with great benefit to the fertility of the land on which they are folded.
My next proposition is this: Here is a necessitous industry, necessitous not merely because of the terrible losses we sustained during the 1930s, but for a far bigger and deeper reason. For the last 100 years, I believe, the fertility of the hills, particularly in North and West Scotland, has been decreasing. If you own a low ground farm it is not very difficult to ascertain, over a period of five or seven years, whether its fertility is increasing or decreasing. But I believe it is exceedingly difficult, when farming hill land, to say whether or not the fertility is increasing or decreasing over a long period. It is only by looking at the land at 10 year periods or longer that you know whether the bracken is spreading, whether the drainage is deteriorating and whether the quality of the grass has improved or not.
At the present time, hill sheep farmers are living by means of subsidy, and that


subsidy has been necessary owing to the fact that the product of the hill sheep farms bears little relationship to their outgoings. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, no doubt referring to the country as a whole, said that he thought wages costs were about one-third of the total outgoings. From what I know of the average hill sheep farm in my part of the country, I should say that wages costs represent perhaps as much as 50 per cent, of the total outgoings. That is a very serious matter for the farmers.
We must get away from the subsidy. Therefore, my next proposition is that we need a long term policy that must be put into effect over a number of years. It seems to me there is only one way to do this, and that is by increasing the income of the farmers. If one asks an ordinary farmer how this is to be done, he will say " Give me. higher prices."I believe that method should be rejected right away. To give higher prices for the same number and quality of sheep presupposes continuing the subsidy, which is the sort of thing against which we would all set our faces. I turn to the other alternatives by which increased income can be obtained. First, it is possible to increase the income of the hill sheep farm by having better sheep. It is also possible to increase the income by having a few more sheep. I will not put it higher than that, because, as any hill farmer knows if one overstocks the ground, the sheep begin to deteriorate in quality.
Nevertheless, I believe that if the land were improved, if the bracken were cut and drains were made, it would be possible to increase output of the farms and to have a certain number of extra lambs. Finally, I believe it would be possible, as was admirably explained by the hon. Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden), with whom I entirely agree, to have more black cattle, at any rate on the hills of Scotland, which is the country about which I can speak, because I do not know conditions in England so well. How are we to bring this about? In the first place, we must restore the fertility, the sheep-carrying capacity, of the land. Secondly, we must eradicate disease. Thirdly, we must stop the labour drift which has been going on for many years,

and taking many of the best men away from the farms and into the towns.
Let me deal first with the last point, the human problem of the shepherd. What is it that a shepherd wants? He wants a decent wage, he wants a decent house, he wants reasonable access to that house, so that his wife will not have to walk a mile, a mile and a half, or even two miles to the nearest road end in order to shop from the vans as they come. Finally, he wants to be able to send his children to school from his own house and not to have them boarded out. Those are the things which the average shepherd wants. It is not everybody who wants to be a shepherd, but there are always men who like to live with nature. But we shall never get shepherds to remain on the farms unless better conditions are provided for them. As far as I can see, and subject to such qualifications as I may make later, these conditions are, by and large, provided for in the Bill.
I turn now to the question of research, to which the hon. Member for Chorley drew attention. I agree with him. I do not suppose it is something which can appropriately be brought within this Bill, but I would like to draw the attention of the Minister of Agriculture and the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland to the research which is required so badly. In doing so, I feel that the Under-Secretary of State, if he were in the House at the moment, would wish to associate himself with me in a tribute to the admirable work that has been done by various research organisations, the Animal Diseases Research Bureau at the Moredun Institute outside Edinburgh and the West of Scotland Agricultural College.
This has a very practical application. Let us take the case of a hill sheep farm of about 2,000 acres or more, carrying about 60 score of sheep. We keep our sheep for six years. In theory—we should keep 200 ewe lambs every year. In practice, we find it necessary to keep 240 or even 250 ewe lambs. If we did not have this wastage, we would be able to send to the market every year 50 more ewe lambs than we do. Those lambs would probably be of rather better quality than the lambs we do send to market, because obviously we keep the best ones for breeding. I estimate their value according to present prices, at say, £2 a head. Therefore, it will be obvious how great a difference could be made if research could eliminate


that amount of disease which is, in my view, reasonably preventible.
Further I want to draw attention not merely to losses caused by death, but to the loss caused by crippling. On my own farm we do not suffer too badly, but on farms with a bad incidence of disease there are large numbers of wretched little lambs that practically never come to anything. Indeed, some of them are so bad that the farmers may take them to the market and give them away as " luck pennies "To one of the big buyers. All that makes a difference. Many deaths and much crippling could be saved each year by eradicating disease.
With regard to improved fertility, most of the measures concerned are referred to in the Bill. One cannot lay down the law about the cutting of bracken, but a good bracken cutter—and there are many on the market—worked by a good man, will cover a very wide acreage. Provided the bracken is cut down during June, when the frond is still curled over and the bracken is weak, so that it bleeds, it is possible fairly easily to eradicate bracken by cutting it twice in a season over a period of three years. I know of ground on my own farm which, when I was a boy, was entirely covered by bracken; the bracken has now been completely killed off. With regard to drainage—

Earl Winterton: Can the hon. Gentleman say what is the cost of the bracken cutters? I understand it is comparatively low. We require them in the South of England very badly.

Mr. Scott-Elliot: If I remember rightly, I bought a bracken cutter before the war and I think it cost me £45. At that time, there was a scheme under the aegis of the Department of Agriculture for Scotland by which they paid one-sixth of the cost over each of the first three years. The expense is not great. What is expensive is cutting the bracken on stony ground, where a petrol driven bracken cutter will not work. That is a problem that ought to be tackled.
I come now to the question of drainage. As hon. Members will know, we do not have tile drains on the hills but drains of the open trench variety; these drains easily become clogged up with grass. I was horrified when walking over my own farm at Easter to find that drains which were cut in 1939 had deteriorated badly since then. Where drains are not kept up

well the land becomes completely sodden and, as the right hon. Member for Antrim (Sir H. O'Neill) mentioned, there is a very serious risk of liver fluke. There are two other important and practical points in connection with the rehabilitation of hill land. In the first place I am perfectly convinced that in our own country if we could get the lime and superphosphate or the basic slag on to the hills at a cost that was not prohibitive, we should be able to produce very much better grassland. The natural clovers are there and we need only to tickle them up by means of lime or basic slag which, as hon. Members know, contains a fair percentage of phosphoric acid. In the Balfour of Burleigh Report reference was made to the possibility of using aeroplanes, and although when I read it at first I must admit that I was inclined to laugh, in view of the wonderful work done in supplying the 14th Army in Burma by air I now realise that, if it were possible to drop quantities of lime over an area so that it might subsequently be spread, it: would be of inestimable benefit to the hills.
Again, there is the equally important: point of actually breaking up certain hill land and bringing it under good quality grass—the kind of work which was done so splendidly by Professor Stapledon on some of the hills in Wales. I am doing this in a small way on my own farm and know that it is a long and laborious job, but if one can break up, say, five acres at a time, sow it with corn, then put it under turnips and finally sow it out with rape and a good mixture of grass seed, this produces grass of good value of quite different feeding value from that of the poor quality hill grass. Take the case of a ewe which is not nursing her lamb well on the hills; if she is brought down and fed on good grass in the fields she will generally nurse her lamb successfully and may actually improve in condition. Such is the difference between the value of the hill grass and the grass in the fields.
May I say a word about cattle? I would stress the importance of having additional cattle for two reasons; first, because they will increase the income of the farm, and, second, because, indirectly, they will greatly increase the fertility of the farm. It is a very important point in farming to look at that kind of thing. Supposing the cattle brought in no money at all, it would still be worth having them for the increased


fertility they provided. Nevertheless, I believe that the hills can carry more cattle and, with great respect to the numbers of extremely wise shepherds whom I know, there is a certain prejudice to cattle on the ground that they take the grass away from the sheep. If the farm has too many cattle, clearly that is the case, but where the number is reasonable —not, I think, the number of cattle mentioned by the hon. Member for West Perth, who was speaking about the Highlands in the old days when they were carrying a very much larger population than today and when there was a much more intensive form of farming going on—I believe they would be a very real asset.
Finally, may I say a word about the cost, because I have been interested by what hon. Members have said today and am myself not altogether happy on the subject. Everybody seems to have taken the cost as £5 million, whereas in point of fact the total amount of expenditure that is provided for is £10 million since the Government are to provide only a 50 per cent, grant. But will £10 million be sufficient? I shall be very grateful if my right hon. Friend the Minister will deal with this point in winding up, because it was specifically mentioned in the Balfour of Burleigh Report on Scotland that a considerably larger sum might be needed. There seems to be a considerable discrepancy between the Government's proposals and those considered necessary by the two hill sheep farming reports. I hope the Second Reading of this Bill will be given today and that the Measure will ultimately become law. When it becomes law I hope the landlords and tenants will submit well considered, ordered schemes and that these will be put into effect at the earliest possible date so as to provide for the rehabilitation of the quality of our hill land which is so badly needed in the national interest.

6.16 p.m.

Major Sir Thomas Dugdale: I do not propose to follow in great detail the interesting speech of the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. Scott-Elliot) in regard to the conditions of sheep farming in the Border country, but I should like at the outset to say how much I agree with his remarks about cattle. I believe there is a prejudice against cattle and sheep grazing on the same pasture, and though I have no personal experience on

hill land, in that regard, I am satisfied that there is no reason at all why in the lowlands cattle and sheep should not feed on the same pasture. I support this Bill in principle although I believe my hon. Friends on this side of the House will have a good many Amendments for consideration in Committee. The scope of the Bill was very carefully described to us by the Joint Under-Secretary in moving the Second Reading, when he referred to such figures as 16 million acres which can be considered as hill farming land in the United Kingdom, and which represents 34 per cent, of the total agricultural land. These are big figures, and it behoves us all to do anything, by suitable legislation, to restore the prosperity of the hill farms in our country.
I would ask the Minister one or two questions which I hope he may answer when he comes to reply, especially in regard to improvement schemes. It is my view that if, as the Joint Under-Secretary suggested, the Government receive the wholehearted support of the industry in carrying out this Bill, then it will be for the Government to help on their side, and I believe that real success in the operation of this Bill will lie in the sympathetic administration of each individual improvement scheme. Each locality differs to a very great extent. In the last hour or so we have heard two hon. Members refer to their idea of a low level economic sheep farm varying from 300 acres to 1,300 acres. That is a very great difference, but it only goes to show how different are conditions in different parts of the country. I believe that the success of any of these schemes must depend to a large extent on the Minister using local knowledge in regard to the different schemes that are put up to him.
We should try to look at these not as at cut-and-dried bureaucratic schemes. If local knowledge is availed of, the result will be very large dividends in the success of the scheme. Furthermore, the average hill farm dweller today, although he listens to the wireless in the evening and to the national news, does not read a great many departmental circulars, and does not inform himself on the details of matters issued from the Ministry. Unless the Ministry take care that the information which they communicate is presented in a simple and palatable form, it does not achieve its object. When the Minister is


making plans, after this Bill has passed into law, I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should arrange for simple, short but detailed statements of the procedure under the Bill to be circulated, in any way he thinks proper, in the districts in which he thinks that information will be most useful in connection with schemes to be initiated. In the part of the country which I have the honour to represent I am satisfied that it is important that firsthand information should be circulated in order that the benefits of the Bill can be understood and we can cooperate with the Government.
When the Bill becomes law many schemes will be brought into operation. I shall not look upon the Bill as a success if we have just one or two very big schemes covering very large areas. I hope that the full advantage of the comprehensive Schedule, to which I shall refer in a few moments, will be available, and that we shall have many schemes of many varieties to improve our hill farming.
There is one question which must be clarified. The Parliamentary Secretary referred to the relationship between farming and forestry. His reference was all very interesting as far as it went, but it did not go far enough. I ask the Minister to go further. I suggest that a survey be made as soon as practicable to clarify the position as to the land likely to be taken over by the Forestry Commission. There was a difference of opinion in 1945, during the passage of the Forestry Act, about who should be responsible for the afforestation of this country. Under that Measure the Ministry became definitely responsible for both forestry and agriculture, and the Minister has the same authority for the two services. If we are to urge landowners, tenant farmers and other members of the agricultural community to go in for schemes, it is vital that they should know where they are, so far as forestry is concerned. I think it will be agreed on all sides of the House that we want to see the two services going forward on parallel lines. There is no doubt that in certain areas the land will benefit if it is put down to afforestation, possibly for 100 years. Long after we are gone it can come back again to sheep. If this is to be done, it is vital that people should know what is to be done, and that money should not be wasted in comprehensive schemes which, in a few years, would become valueless because the

Forestry Commission would come down and take over the area.
A point which has not been mentioned in the Debate so far is the definition of hill farming. Clause 1 (3) clearly indicates a definition. From inquiries I have made, I understand that Scotland is satisfied with the Clause as it stands, and that many other people, who have more authority to speak on the matter than I, are also satisfied that the Clause is clear; but I am not happy about it. I ask the Minister to give it further consideration between now and when we consider the matter in Committee. In England we have a considerable amount of marginal land. The question is where to draw the line under the definition in Clause 1 (3). I have been told, and I believe that the information is accurate, that certain county committees have used the altitude of farms as a test for eligibility for sheep or cattle subsidies. I think the Minister will agree that it should not be only one set of circumstances. I believe it is a wrong principle to tie local committees down to a particular formula which they may find it difficult to administer.
To take a hypothetical case, I would say that under these schemes the average rainfall should come into the calculation. We do not want land to be used for hill farming which is suitable for arable crops. We want to encourage the agriculture of land which is suitable for hill farming. I have mentioned rainfall because in some Western districts of this country you may sew a crop, and get a growth of corn which, in nine years out of 10, it is impossible to harvest owing to the extremely heavy rainfall, and it is left in the field. I therefore ask the Minister to look carefully into the definition before we come to the Committee stage of the Bill.
I turn to the improvements which may be included in a scheme, with reference to the First Schedule. The list is fairly comprehensive, but I am horrified at the announcement, made by the Joint Under-Secretary, that the third item is to be washed out. This was printed and introduced by the Government on 17th February. I read it with very great interest and care:
 Erection, improvement or reconditioning of cottages attached, or to be attached, to a hill sheep farm, and let, or to be let, under a contract of service.


In other words, a tied cottage. One must enter the realm of controversy on this subject because, in my view and in my part of the world, we want more tied cottages in our rural community, and not fewer. I know that is entirely a contrary view to that held by Members on the other side of the House, but it absolutely defeats me, why whenever one mentions tied cottages Members on the other side get a sort of funny feeling at the back of the throat and wriggle in their seats and think this is some terrible device.

Mr. Alpass: We are opposed to the tied cottage system because we know it and have experienced it. Our constituents have experienced the injustices and evils which have been perpetrated under it.

Sir T. Dugdale: We take an entirely contrary view. We believe that in the interests of agriculture and in the interest of the farm labourers, a tied cottage is a most satisfactory method of putting people near the place where they work and not a long way from it—in a house on the spot. We have found from experience, certainly in the Northern part of England, that this system is most satisfactory. It is a terrible thing that this item should be deleted, and I hope that my hon. Friends and I may have an Amendment later on to reinsert it in the Bill.
Apart from tied cottages, I think the Schedule is very good. I would like an addition to the Schedule which would include electricity for " agricultural or domestic purposes," because if we want, as I am certain we all want, to see an extension of electricity in our country districts, it would not be wise to say that we could have electricity in the cow barns and electricity in the house which is built for the bull—which I understand is much easier to build than a house for human beings—and yet not allow electricity in the farm house or the dwelling house of the farm labourer. I would also refer to the committees which are to be set up under Clauses 30 and 31 of the Bill. The hon. Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) dealt faithfully with this subject. I hope that the Minister of Agriculture, when he replies, will tell us in more detail the exact functions of these advisory committees and their composition, and, further, that he will say a word to us regarding the local committees which are

being set up under Clause 31. I take it, and I would like to know if I am wrong, that the war agricultural executive committees will in practice be these committees under Clause 31. I believe they are the right people for the job, and in practice they are the people who will organise the schemes and administer them in the various districts.
If that is so, and the House would like to know if it is so or not, quite obviously there should be some proviso in the new rearrangement which the Minister is making with the agricultural executive committees to make certain that there are representatives who are experienced in and have knowledge of hill farming among the members of the agricultural committees which will have to operate schemes under this Bill. I suggest the possibility of joint committees where county boundaries cover a block of hill farming area. That is very marked in England. The North Riding of Yorkshire and the constituency of the hon. Member for Westmorland (Mr. Vane) join right in the middle of a hill farming area. Further North, the county of Durham joins Cumberland and still further North Cumberland joins Dumfries in similar circumstances. The actual area where the schemes, if they are to be most successful, will have to operate, will be East to West across county boundaries rather than North to South. I suggest the Minister ought either to have joint committees in these cases or, if that proves to be impossible, he should have representatives from one committee sitting on neighbouring committees so that the administration of exactly similar areas can go forward in comparable fashion, under the same organisation.
Much has been said about finance. Ii this scheme is to be the success that the Government expect and that we hope it will be, the Minister will agree that £4,000,000 in five years, with a possible £1,000,000 in addition, will not go far for all the work that has to be done, but it is a start in the right direction in the rehabilitation of our hill farming land. Our hill farmers up and down the country produce as good a sheep as any other country in the world. They can produce as good cattle as any other country in the world, and I believe we have to encourage a very big increase in the cattle popula-


tion among our hill farms. Within these hill districts there is living a race of men who are worthy of the name of British agriculture.

6.38 p.m.

Mr. M. Philips Price: This Bill is probably the only practical Measure which the Government can adopt at the moment to deal with this question. I am not afraid that its provisions are going to enable land owners to enrich themselves at the public expense because there are sufficient safeguards in it against anything of that kind. Clause 8 (3) lays down that there can be no increased rents charged by an owner except in respect of the 50 per cent, which he himself has had to find for these improvements, that being the condition under which improvements from State sources can come.

Mr. Alpass: What about sale?

Mr. Price: I do not suppose that anyone who has laid out money on improving a farm wants to go and sell it. If he has any sense, presumably he is in the business in order to make it run, not just to speculate. There are other wider considerations raised by the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) and others, which are important considerations. Hill farming, as carried out over a very large part of the Highlands of Scotland, Wales and the North of England, has been carried out by small family farmers, farming anything up to 300 acres. These small farms are most uneconomic. The Economic Section of the Department of Agriculture at Aberystwyth University, in a very interesting publication called "Hill Sheep Farming in Wales" said:
On economic grounds it seems established that it is desirable and even necessary to increase the size of hill farms.
Then it gives a series of interesting tables showing that the output per man is only one-quarter on the smaller farm of what it is on the larger farm. Those are serious considerations, and I submit to the Minister that he must consider whether it is not money thrown away to lay it out on many of these farms. What is necessary, together with this improvement scheme, is the re-organisation of the whole layout of these farms, and it is a question whether a large number should not be thrown into one holding. In other words, the question is whether a piecemeal method of dealing

with this problem voluntarily is enough, or whether it is not a question of dealing with it wholesale and compulsorily. I think there is reason in some of the arguments of my hon. Friends on this side of the House who say that ultimately the State will have to take this matter in hand; that, where voluntary methods fail, we shall have to go in for compulsory methods and that the State must eventually take over considerable areas and become the landowner itself. I would not interfere with voluntary schemes which this Bill makes possible. I would let them carry on, because we are a practical people in this country and if, as a result of this scheme, we can get practical and sound voluntary schemes, let us use them. However, I do not hide from myself that drastic methods will ultimately be necessary—

Mr. McKie: May I point out to the hon. Gentleman that his remarks regarding the size of the units in Scotland and Wales and the hill sheep farms North of the Tweed are very misleading?

Mr. Price: I am not so well acquainted with Scottish matters. I was dealing with Wales, where the fact is absolutely established, and I should imagine that" somewhat similar conditions prevail in Scotland. But I give way to the hon. Member on that.

Mr. McKie: Two thousand acres would be small.

Mr. Price: I think it is also established in Scotland that the larger sheep farm is more economic than the smaller one. The actual areas of the units may be different, but I think the principle stands. I welcome very much Clauses 16 and 17 of this Bill, which will affect my constituency, where from time immemorial we have had the commoners of the Dean running their sheep in the Forest, originally as compensation granted by the King, far off in the Middle Ages, for damage done by his deer. The commoners today have organised themselves into an association and have been trying for some time to improve the breed of sheep. Unfortunately, a certain number of people always stay out of this association, and it is still possible for a type of ram to be used in the forest which is not a credit to the commoners.

Mr. Turton: Is it a ram of a hardy kind?

Mr. Price: It is of a special kind. That is a point which I think will have to be considered. It is from a type containing a large amount of Welsh blood, and therefore I think it can reasonably be regarded as a hardy type It lives in the forest, 1,000 feet up, and can, I think, be regarded as coming within the terms of this Bill. I welcome this Bill as a Measure for improving this type of sheep.
Finally, I hope the Minister will administer this Bill with discretion. Much of the land which is now running sheep, and has done so for a very long time, should really be growing something else. When I served for three years as a Forestry Commissioner, I travelled over a very large part of England, Scotland and Wales to see the State forests and I had occasion to inspect much of the land now run in to sheep. Much of it, I felt, should now be growing trees. The land is crying out for trees because nature calls for rotation of crops, and for 150 years, as the right hon. Member for Antrim (Sir H. O'Neill) pointed out, much of this land has been growing nothing else but sheep. Sheep are very dainty grazers which can damage the pasture, if continued too long, as every farmer knows. Not only that, but in my opinion the enormous spread of bracken in the uplands of England and the Highlands of Scotland is due to excessive sheeping. Bracken is nature's reply to mismanagement by man. Things nave gone so far that I think it is irremediable in some cases, and some of this land can only go to trees. It is true there is other land where the process of deterioration has not gone so far, and where a judicious mixture of sheep and cattle can provide the answer. After all, cattle represented the wealth of the Highland clans in the days before 1745, and I see no reason why they should not redeem a large part of these uplands once more—not sheep alone because cattle do not graze so daintily, do not damage the land by their operations, and consequently I believe they can be a means of revitalising the land. So I hope the Minister, who is now the Pooh-Bah of rural economy and can decide on matters concerning agriculture and forestry, will decide what land is to go to agriculture, and what to forestry. There is a great responsibility on his shoulders, and I hope he will judge correctly.

6.49 p.m.

Mr. Wilfrid Roberts: There are two parts of England specially interested in this Bill. One is Wales, about which the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) is more qualified to speak than I am, and the other is the North of England, the four Northern counties. In those counties sheep come next to cattle as the important source of income to farmers generally. In some farms, of course, they come top and the cattle come next. Therefore, this Bill is welcome in the Northern counties. It may turn out, however, to be a little disappointing in practice, partly because £5 million is not enough for the whole of Great Britain, partly because five years is too short a period. Both of those shortcomings can be corrected. The time can be increased if the Bill is found to be a success, and so can the money.
There is another limitation which I think may present difficulties later. I am not sure whether I ought to declare myself as personally interested in this Bill or not. I am a farmer, but I do not know whether my land is high enough to qualify for help under this Bill as it is at present. If the rigid definition of " hill " remains, then the Bill will apply only to very high land and I think there will be a good deal of disappointment amongst large numbers of farmers who have had a difficult time during the war. Their farms have been too low to get the full benefit of the hill sheep and cattle subsidies and too high to benefit from the encouragement given to arable farmers. They are mostly not large farmers. Their farms could be enormously improved by the sort of methods outlined in the First Schedule to the Bill. I hope the Minister will be prepared to consider widening the definition of " hill-farming " somewhat in order that it will not be applicable only to the tops of the hills. Even in Scotland, I believe—in the Border country, with which I am a little familiar, as I occasionally make raids to the other side of the Border —there are many farms which are not properly " hill " farms but which have experienced the same sort of difficulties as hill farms in the Northern counties. That problem, I believe also applies very much to Wales.
There is a close economic connection between the higher farms and lower marginal farms. The whole sheep industry of the North of England is one,


whether it is on the high, medium or low ground farms, because the sheep are bred on the hills. They are then crossed and come down lower for feeding and breeding various crosses on the low farms. It is important that the economic stability of the high farm should be put on a sound basis because without it the whole sheep industry of the North of England would crumble; but we must take the whole thing together. I am one who believes that in the future there will be opportunities for a great development of the sheep industry. We are one of the few countries of the world who really appreciate good mutton, but at present approximately half our mutton is imported. It may be that we can increase consumption, and certainly people would be very ready to do so at present. I believe there is a great future for the type of grassland flocks which is the sort of sheep farming practised in the North of England. It is very important not to confine assistance given under this Bill only to the very high farms. The marginal farms need all these things, improved water supplies, improved buildings, improved grassland and all the rest. If the intention of the Bill is to increase production in the next few years, I believe we would get a greater increase from the marginal farms than from the high farms.
I wish to say a word about a matter which is referred to a great deal in the two reports on Scottish and English hill farms. That is the question of research. No doubt it is not necessary to put what is being done about research into the Bill, but I hope that when the Minister replies he will tell us something about it, so that we can see the whole matter as one picture. In the Northern counties of England we felt at one time that the problems relating to sheep were not getting their fair consideration, and between the wars there developed a voluntary organisation of research into sheep diseases. It has done invaluable work. I refer to the work done by Lyle Stewart, of the Duke of Northumberland's Fund, in cooperation with King's College in Newcastle. I do not know what is going to be done under the new Advisory Service, but it is quite clear that one of the problems in which we need help in the North of England is that of sheep diseases. It is not only a veterinary problem; what is required is research into all the interlocking problems of disease,

nutrition, management of land and systems of stock keeping. If the Minister can tell us what is to be done under the new Advisory Service it would be very helpful. I think that modern engineering developments have altered the position in many ways. With modern tractors, as Sir George Stapledon has pointed out, all kinds of things can be done with rough land which could never be done before, and there are great possibilities now for improving high and marginal farms. With properly coordinated research, great progress could be made in increasing the productivity of these farms.
Several speakers have referred to the question of afforestation and again, in order to see what the Government intend to do, I ask the Minister whether he could say something about the survey which I understand is going on in the Northern counties, and perhaps elsewhere, into afforestation. Can the Minister give any sort of principle which has been laid down to guide those conducting the survey, as to what land is to be used for forestry and what land for farming? I feel that we have got to a period now when it is possible that much land considered only useful for forestry could be improved so that its output for farming would be so increased that it would be too good for forestry. I share the view of many farmers that it is a pity to see some of the land being planted.
I believe there is room for the development of the sheep industry. But, like other hon. Members, I also believe that cattle can play a valuable part on the high hills. We have an example from the Lake District of shorthorn cattle being kept high up on the hills in Cumberland and Westmorland. I am not sure that under this Bill the keeping and breeding of dairy cattle on the hills can be encouraged. As I see it, the object of the improvement scheme must be to improve the land for the purpose of " keeping a hardy breed of sheep."It may be that indirectly, by breeding shorthorn cattle in the Lake District the land is being improved for " a hardy breed of sheep," but it is rather indirect. Surely the object of the Bill ought to be, not "The improvement of the land for a hardy breed of sheep " but the improvement of the productivity of the land both for sheep and cattle, in some cases beef cattle, in other cases dairy cattle. An alteration in the objective of the Bill might be desirable. In Scotland I notice that the subsidy on


cattle is operated in such a way that a premium is given to breeding cattle, a much larger premium than is given to breeding cattle in England.
Taking the long view, the right policy is to encourage breeding cattle. Surely the hills should be the reservoir for breeding, not merely a place where cattle can go up and be fed on the surplus grass in the summer. It may mean that more buildings are required on the hill farms. It may be that the balance of summer keep and winter keep must be adjusted. More meadows are required for hay in winter. That is exactly what this Bill is to encourage. Surely the financial encouragement of the cattle subsidy should be adjusted to encourage people to keep breeding stock, and not merely summering cattle. There is a shortage of store cattle and it would be better if blue greys and other store cattle suitable for whatever district is concerned were bred on the hills.
In regard to one special point which I wish to raise, again I think the Bill should be improved. On some high land in my part of the country there are common rights that are not " stinted."I am not sure whether the word " stint "Is altogether understood. It means that on those hills various farmers have rights to graze sheep and cattle. There is no definition as to how many cattle and sheep each person may graze. In the old days the lord of the manor laid down how many should be grazed by each commoner, but that has fallen out of use today. There is now no definition as to how many cattle or sheep commoners may graze, with the result that if improvements schemes are carried out they may easily be ruined by overstocking on the part of a few of the commoners. In the Explanatory Memorandum to the Bill, it is stated that the Minister will not take action to meet that point if there is objection. I wonder whether that is really a wise policy.
In one case I can think of during the war about 60 per cent, of persons concerned were agreed that if improvements were to be carried out on common land it was only reasonable that there should be some definition as to what cattle and sheep each of the commoners was allowed to graze. I am not asking for the Minister to take compulsory powers to carry out the improvement. I am only asking that a

reasonable majority of commoners concerned should first of all agree what each one's rights are, and then, when it comes to a question of the improvement, they could proceed on a known basis of who is interested in the common, and the cost of the improvement could be properly adjusted to that basis. That is a point which might be dealt with in the Committee stage. The Bill is valuable. But I share the views of some hon. Members who wonder whether it will really be sufficiently used to meet the considerable needs of hill farmers. There are other matters like security of tenure for those who undertake this work which will have to be more carefully watched. I congratulate the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland in the way he introduced this Bill, and generally I wish it every success.

7.8 p.m.

Mr. Lavers: I am pleased to have this opportunity to add my contribution to a Debate on agriculture. I have listened to previous Debates on agricultural problems and have heard speakers urge the need for cereal production. That is understood and accepted, because cereal production plays such a vital part in our agricultural economy, and because of the world shortage of cereals, and its consequent effect on postwar world recovery. This evening we have an opportunity of discussing another important aspect of British agriculture—hill farming. The Bill deals specifically with a vital section of agriculture, and is giving my colleagues from the North a great deal of concern. When I speak of "The North "In relation to this Bill I feel reasonably proud, because what counties have made a greater contribution to hill farming than Durham, Northumberland, Cumberland, and Westmorland? It is beyond a shadow of a doubt that the types of sheep or cattle which are bred in the Northern counties are second to none, not only in this country but in any part of the world.
Having said that, I am not unmindful that my colleagues on both sides of the House are expressing some concern about the Bill, whether they represent Scotland, South Wales or the Northern part of Yorkshire. I have the honour of representing a largish rural constituency in the county of Durham. That county is usually associated with coal. Usually nine out of ten speakers from Durham


speak about coal. It is not hard to explain why they do so, but in addition to the production of coal for the nation, in our county of Durham, hill sheep fanning plays a very large part. According to the latest figures for Durham the number of sheep in the county qualifying for subsidy during 1945 was 58,800. Those are ewes and shearlings and so represent the size of the breeding flocks. The total number of ewes and shearlings in the county on the corresponding date, 4th December, 1944, was 79,400 so that the hill sheep represent almost exactly 60 per cent, of the total in Durham.
I suggest that hill farms in "This country have been for a long time the distressed areas of British agriculture. Our hill grazing has definitely deteriorated. It is commonly agreed that the farms need new life in the form of capital improvements. Other speakers have referred to the fact that hill farmers, as such, have not enjoyed the relative prosperity of the lowland farmers. They have not benefited from wartime prices and, as a consequence, have suffered. Recently, the Government announced their long term policy for agriculture which guarantees prices and markets and which, I think, received the broad approval of the farming community. I suggest that this little Bill—it is little in one sense—will enable the Minister to build up still further that long range policy to which he referred in a speech some time ago. I regard the Bill as an important interim Measure. It will stimulate the hill sheep industry and it will also help the lowland farmers because they are dependent on the former for the supply of sheep stuffs. Our flocks must be improved for breeding purposes. Everything possible should be done to restore the country's livestock. That is not a short term but a long term policy. In the First Schedule there are suggested:
Improvements which may be included in schemes for rehabilitation of hill farming land.
I refer particularly to item 17:
 Reseeding and regeneration of grazings and other cultural operations.
The real trouble is the low production of our hill farms. The quality and yield of our pastures require improvement. Speaking recently at the East of Scotland College of Agriculture at Edinburgh, Professor J. T. MacKie mentioned that two more hill research stations would be

opened in Scotland, one in the West of Scotland and one on the Border, which would also serve the North of England. I do not wish to appear parochial, but I would like some information regarding research stations. How will Durham be served? I ask that question because Durham had a reputation in agriculture long before war agricultural committees were ever thought of, when a democratically elected people did a job of work. We have a good reputation. Former Ministers on the opposite side of the House were the first to pay the highest tributes to the Socialist representatives on the agricultural committees in that great and noble county. Can the Minister tell us where Durham will be served in the future in regard to research? Will this Bill cater for agricultural research in hill farming? I would also like to know whether item 17 of the First Schedule caters for this Would county councils, through their agricultural colleges, be empowered to have Government aid if such research is conducted? In regard to finance, I would like to ask whether the Minister has a. scheme by which each hill farming district will get an equitable share of the moneys provided by the State. That to me is very vital. I do not want to see Scotland getting away with the biggest share.
Finally, I would say that we can rehabilitate our land by improving it, but unless we are going to improve the conditions of the people who have been engaged in this industry for a long time, I am afraid it will be a wasted effort. If this Bill does nothing else, it will become a slum clearance Bill for the hill farming industry. If it serves no other purpose than to rid the countryside of the slums which exist today, it will have done a grand job of work. In reference to the people who are carrying into effect the hill farming policy now, and who have done it in years gone by—especially in the war years—I would say that patriotism has held them to the job. Believe me, if I know anything about the future educational policy of this Government, unless something is done to make the conditions of the home life of these people attractive, we shall have a migration from this industry into something far more sweet, and with a far brighter outlook.
I welcome the Bill. I believe it will bring new life to the people who live in isolated and inaccessible parts of rural


England. They should have modern houses with complete modern amenities similar to the houses of urban dwellers. Roads should be made available to the farms, and they should be provided with adequate water and electricity supplies. In short, they should have the same facilities as those enjoyed by people in the urban areas. Good will has been expressed from both sides of the House for this Bill, and I believe if we are sincere in trying to make this Bill a great Measure and if the job is done on the lines indicated in the First Schedule, then we shall accomplish something.

7.19 p.m.

Major McCallum: I have no experience of the noble county of Durham and, therefore, I cannot follow the hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Lavers) very far in what he has said. The capital of the county I happen to represent is the Royal and Ancient Burgh of Inverary, centre of the largest sheep farming county in the British Isles. I have listened carefully to the speeches that have been made in this Debate. Every speech has been notable for its information and for the experience of the hon. Members who have made them. There have been very valuable contributions which should prove helpful to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland. The speeches have been on the whole extremely informative and such as Members in all parts of the House could support. I hope that my own words will be judged to have been based on some experience.
Most hon. Members have said they welcome the Bill, and we in the Western Highlands of Scotland welcome it particularly. I represent what is perhaps the one county in the British Isles that suffered most, much more than other districts, by the constant depression of the hill farming industry. There are several points which we shall hope to raise with the Minister during the Committee stage, but they are points into which there is no need to go in detail now. I do, however, feel that on the question of compulsion, which the hon. Gentleman explained to the House, something needs to be said. Why have the Government thought it unnecessary to make these schemes compulsory? I feel that many

of them might be completely wrecked and rendered useless by the fact that certain farms and certain estates might carry out improvement schemes, and yet lie side by side with other farms from which disease and all kinds of hindrances to the hill farming industry could cross very easily. I feel that these schemes should be compulsory throughout the hill farming areas. I also think that facilities should be given to enable credits to be obtained on reasonable terms for those tenants and farmers, owners and occupiers, who cannot raise the necessary money to carry out such schemes.
The total of £5 million has been criticised by several hon. Members. I have no doubt that, long before this period of five years has expired, the £5 million will have been expended, especially in view of the third item in the list of improvements in the Schedule to the Bill and in view of the question of the tied cottage.
I must confess that I was horrified to hear the Joint Under-Secretary say what he did about the tied cottage. The hon. Gentleman is a Scotsman, representing not only lowland agriculture, but highland agriculture, and he said that the tied cottage must go. I think it is very difficult to understand what he meant. I know that many hon. Members on the other side disagree with the idea of the tied cottage, and I know that the hon. Gentleman below the Gangway does, although he says he has not the experience that many of his constituents have. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that many of my constituents live miles away in shepherds' cottages up long glens, sometimes three, four, five and even six miles away from the main farm buildings. Does the hon. Gentleman really believe that, when a shepherd comes to the end of his time or gives notice, he can stay on in that cottage and that the farmer must build another in the same spot for his successor?

Mr. Alpass: As the hon. and gallant Gentleman referred to me, may I say that we maintain that these men should not be turned out on to the roadside with no alternative accommodation.

Major McCallum: It is not only the farming industry which is affected by the tied cottage. In our part of the world it is absolutely necessary, but it is the


practice in many other industries. In the gasworks all over Great Britain, for instance, men who work there live in cottages near the gasworks, and if they leave that work, they have to get out of the cottages. To say that what is known as the tied cottage should be abolished in the hill sheep farms of the Highlands of Scotland is to show a complete misunderstanding of the situation.
Farmers in the Western Highlands feel very strongly about security of tenure. This question has been raised in the Debate, and I do not want to go into it fully now. There is also the intricate question of sheep stock valuations. I can assure the Minister that on the Committee stage he will be hearing quite a lot about the various views of hill sheep farmers all over the Highlands on these matters.
Then there is the question of heather burning. I feel that it might be possible during the Committee stage to have the Clauses relating to heather burning amended rather on the lines suggested by the hon. Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) and that some kind of approved scheme could be put forward by the Minister of Agriculture laying down what should be done. I have heard it said that all heather over seven years of age should be burnt. That may be perfectly all right in the East, but seven years old heather on the West coast is still considered young, and what we are burning is heather that is 14 or 15 years old. To lay down a period like that is unwise, and I am sure that something on the lines suggested by my hon. Friend could be done in consultation with the committees which would solve this question much more satisfactorily than in the way laid down under the Bill.
I want to refer to the question of wool. For the wool product of the hill farms there is at present a guaranteed price. The Minister will say that it is to continue, but only to the end of 1947, after which time we do not know what is to happen. It is not included in the list of guaranteed prices announced by his right hon. Friend the other day. I ask that, on this question, which is very important to the hill farming industry, we may be given some further indication about the future of the guaranteed price, or the nature of any wool marketing scheme, or whatever may be introduced.
I am sorry that the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) has left the Chamber, because he raised a point in which I am particularly interested. I know that he is a former Forestry Commissioner and feels very strongly on the question of forestry and agriculture. He suggested that some land at present used for sheep grazing could be much more suitably put down to forestry, and I quite agree with that, but I think the hon. Member admitted that, in certain cases, good agricultural land has been planted by the Forestry Commission which ought never to have been planted. I see no reason why it should not come about that certain land, even on the same estate, should have cattle and sheep on it while trees are also planted on parts of it—land which grows nothing now, but would provide ample opportunities for the planting of shelter belts, which are badly needed on Highland farms. There is no reason why that should not be done instead of the present method of segregation of forestry from agriculture. That would be a much more suitable way.
One hon. Member opposite referred 10 the size of farms. He said that in the North of England they averaged about 300 acres and that they were not big enough. Hill sheep farms in the Highlands of Scotland average thousands of acres and when one realises what the ground is like, one can readily understand why. In parts of Argyllshire, on Rannoch Moor and in the Glencoe area, 14 acres would carry one sheep—not 14 sheep 'o the acre. The Forestry Commission do not plant that sort of land; it would involve too much work, but in the old days that land was part of the old Caledonian Forest and there is no reason why it should not go back to forest.
There are two other points to which I wish briefly to refer. The first is the question of bracken, which has been mentioned again and again by hon. Members on all sides of the House. I know that several of the research departments of the agricultural colleges in Scotland are trying to find some use to which bracken can be put, but are they also studying means by which it can be killed? It is said by scientists that it might be possible to impregnate the bracken with some kind of fungus which would kill it off, but would not cause damage to the soil or grass growing there. It is to be hoped


that we shall learn something about this research fairly soon.
Finally, there is the question of transport and freights, which was raised by one hon. Member. If there is one part of the country in which the high freight charges for the transport of farm produce, and livestock in particular, are badly in need of revision, it is in the Highlands and Western Islands of Scotland. There we have poor communications and steamer services on which occasionally, we cannot depend Perhaps later this week, if I am fortunate enough to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, I may be able to dissertate upon this acute question. These tremendous freight charges have to be added to the other costs paid by hill farmers which fanners on the mainland do not have to pay. As I said at the beginning of my speech, I am sure that this Bill will be welcomed by almost everybody on all sides of the House. It is only a beginning, but I believe that the result will be such that, whatever Government are in power at the time, they will realise that the experiment is well worth going on with, and that, if not in our time then in that of our grandchildren, the hill sheep industry will be restored to its former great place in agriculture.

7.34 p.m.

Mr. Alpass: On the few occasions that I have been privileged to intervene in Second Reading Debates on Bills it has been my pleasure to accord them my warm and wholehearted approval because they have been based on sound Socialist principles and were substantial implementations of the electoral programme submitted to, and endorsed by, the electors at the last General Election. But, to my very sincere and deep ' regret, I find myself unable to accord that support to the Bill now before the House because, in my submission, it is at variance with, and opposed to, the Labour Party policy as I have always conceived it, and certainly not in accord with our programme submitted at the last Election. My quarrel with the Bill is directed not so much at the object which is sought to be achieved as at the method by which that object is sought to be obtained. I realise that the rehabilitation of hill farmland is absolutely essential to a sound agricultural economy, and to a well balanced agricultural industry, but I am strongly opposed to the subsidisa-

tion out of State money, of private landlords without any safeguard so far as the capital sum advanced is concerned.
My hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) said he felt that there were ample safeguards in the Bill. I realise that in one Clause it is stated that no increased rent can be charged by the landowner on account of the money put into this operation under the Bill by the State. But there is absolutely no provision in the Bill to prevent the landlord pocketing the increased sum realised when he comes to sell the land. My hon. Friend also said that the people to whom money was advanced in this way would not want to sell, but I have noticed that good landlords do not live for ever and that their estates have to be realised. I have witnessed that sort of thing two or three times in my own Division. The effect of this Bill will be that the tenants who want to acquire their own holdings will have to pay enhanced prices because of the State money advanced and that when we get to the stage envisaged by the hon. Member who introduced this Bill—when we shall do our duty and take over the land—the State will have to pay an enhanced price on account of the money put into these hill farms under this Bill.
I have seen and heard Ministers justify the things they have submitted to this House by quoting from a certain document, " Let us Face the Future."That document is conspicuous by its absence today and, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will endeavour to repair the omission. As I have said, this Bill is opposed to Labour Party policy and I wish to quote a statement from " Let us Face the Future,"The author of which is the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture who sponsored this Bill. It is contended that there is no alternative to the proposal contained in the Bill—to give public money to private landlords—except to allow the industry to decay. What did the right hon. Gentleman write in " Let us Face the Future " when appealing for the support of the people of this country in order to give the Labour Party power to carry out its policy? He said:
If a landlord cannot or will not provide proper facilities for his tenant farmers the State should take over his land at a fair valuation.
I submit that that is a definite and categorical statement. But this Bill does


not suggest that when a landlord says he is unable to provide proper facilities that his land will be taken over by the State at a fair valuation. I quite agree with hon. Members opposite; I am very pessimistic as to the success of voluntaryism because I have had some experience of it. Instead of implementing the very definite statement that the State should take over the land at a fair valuation, it is proposed to adopt the traditional Tory policy of subsidising the landlord out of public funds. I am not surprised that this Bill should be received with favour on the opposite benches. I think I can say with truth that the hand is the hand of our present Minister of Agriculture, but the voice is that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson).

Mr. R. S. Hudson: The hon. Gentleman has got it the wrong way round.

Mr. Alpass: Whether it is the wrong way round or not, there can be no denial that the Bill was conceived under the aegis of the Conservative Minister of Agriculture and that, in effect, it has been produced by the present Minister with practically no alteration.

Mr. Snadden: May I remind the hon. Gentleman that the late Secretary of State for Scotland who collaborated with my right hon. Friend was a Socialist?

Mr. Alpass: I remember the Leader of the House answering a statement of that sort in connection with another Bill. He said that when we were Members of the Coalition Government we were circumscribed, we had not freedom. Now that we have won the Election and have a majority, we can implement our own principles in our own Bills. That is what I am appealing to the Minister to do in this connection. The Under-Secretary of State said that although we did not fight the Election on the principle of land nationalisation, we were going towards it. In " Let Us Face the Future,"In another paragraph—I do not know whether my right hon. Friend was responsible for that —these words appear:
 Labour believes in land nationalisation and will work towards it.
I suggest that instead of facing the future in this Bill, my right hon. Friend is facing backwards and looking into the past, and, instead of this Bill taking us on the road

to nationalisation, it will entrench and strengthen private landlordism.
What alternative can be adopted without involving us in any breach of basic principle? In the Report of the Committee on Hill Sheep Farming in England and Wales, there are two significant statements. We rind in paragraph 43:
 Executive committees should be responsible, under Ministerial direction, for the administration of Government policy in respect of hill lands in private ownership.
On the next page is the passage:
 Where, in the opinion of the Executive Committee, assisted programmes should be applied to hill lands and the owners or occupiers are not prepared to accept a scheme prepared by the Executive Committee, the Committee should, where practicable, and subject to necessary right of appeal, recommend the State purchase of the farm or estate.
That is the policy which I, personally, and some of my colleagues are anxious to see the Minister adopt, rather than this old policy of subsidising private landowners out of public funds. There is a precedent for this. Some of us have tabled an Amendment to the Money Resolution asking that the money, instead of being given, should be loaned. I would tell hon. Members opposite that I am not so much concerned about the amount, provided the money is not given. I do not mind whether £5 million, £10 million, £15 million or even more if necessary is spent on wise schemes, provided the money is loaned, so that the State shall have some quid pro quo for the public money which is put into this industry. This, I submit, is a practical proposition. War agricultural executive committees have already exercised their powers and have taken over very large areas of hill farming land; they have improved it immeasurably, and I see no reason why that practice should not be further extended.

Mr. R. S. Hudson: At what cost to the State?

Mr. Allpass: It would not cost any more than subsidising private landlords.

Mr. Hudson: Oh!

Mr. Allpass: Even if it did, the land would belong to the State and they would be improving and increasing the value of their own property.

Mr. Watkins: Is not that land to be handed back at the end of a certain period?

Mr. Alpass: That may be so, but the landlords would be charged for the improved value. There is no safeguard of that description in this Bill. State money is given to the landlords and they can get away with the increased value on account of the money advanced by the State.
I do not want to take up unnecessary time, Mr. Speaker; I think you recognise that I never make long speeches, and that, perhaps, is why you sometimes call upon me. I am glad that the Under-Secretary, in introducing the Bill, saw fit to withdraw one of the two most objectionable Clauses, namely, the provision that money should only be advanced for the improvement of tied cottages. I do not want to break my tradition of loyalty to my Labour colleagues and to the Labour Government. In my concluding remarks I want to make a very strong appeal to them that before the Bill reaches its final stage, they will reconsider this matter which, to us, involves a very important basic principle, and that instead of giving public money to landlords to improve private property, they will accept the words which we have suggested and lend the money at a very low rate of interest, thus assisting the industry and doing all that is said to be necessary. I have no quarrel with that. We on this side are as anxious to see this industry placed upon a sound footing as hon. Members opposite, but without committing a breach of what appears to me to be a basic Labour principle.

7.47 p.m.

Captain MacLeod: Many points of detail have been raised this evening and as many Members still wish to speak, I shall try to be as brief as possible. I was going to say that this Bill was, no doubt, welcomed by all farmers, but, after hearing the speech of the hon. Member for Thornbury (Mr. Alpass), I feel that as he represents the farmers in his own constituency, such a statement would be false. However, I believe that most farmers do regard this Bill as an advance towards the rehabilitation of hill farming land in Great Britain, although I am afraid that many of my constituents will be most concerned about the hint which the Joint Under-Secretary gave, namely, that these grants were to assist the Government towards their policy of the nationalisation of the land.
This Bill affects the Highlands of Scotland, and particularly my own constituency where hill farming plays an important part in the food production of the country and the clothing of its inhabitants. Agriculture must be the foundation of any policy which we adopt for the Highlands. The hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. Scott-Elliot) referred to the population of the Highlands in the old days, but I will not go into history or the reasons why there was formerly a greater population. The hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) raised a point about finding an economic unit. Resettlement of land and the enlargement of existing holdings constitutes an important economic problem in the Highlands, and we must find the economic unit there. I see no mention of club stock in the Bill. I think there should be some uniform method of dealing with the shares of club stock when a tenant vacates his holding, to enable the incoming tenant to have an opportunity in finding an acclimatised share in the club stock. I was sorry to hear the point about the cottages, which the Joint Under-Secretary raised, and I will not go into that further. However, the assistance given in making roads and in improving bridges, and so on, will be most welcome.
The hon. and gallant Member for Argyll (Major McCallum) referred to freight charges. I sincerely hope that the small farmer in the North will be able to take full advantage of this scheme; he automatically loses a large proportion of the advantage the scheme gives him, as a result of the exorbitant freight charges existing today, which have become an increasing burden on him. In those areas we want to see mixed farms, with happy families having modern facilities at their disposal. In the Highlands of Scotland there are acres and acres of land which could grow luxuriant and rich grasses. In the North-West of Scotland I have seen land which has never been ploughed before, but is now carrying three and four times the amount of cattle it did previously. Unhappily, looking at the financial side again, I am doubtful whether many of the farmers in the Highlands, where drainage alone is such a tremendous problem, even with the payment of the 50 per cent, grant will be able to meet the remaining 50 per cent. Greater assistance to aid the farmer to improve the fertility of the land on the West coast will be a sound investment for the national


economy, and a step towards the solution of the Highlands' problem.
Some hon. Members have said that the question of a research station cannot be raised in connection with this Bill. I ask why not. Services which are married to the land cannot be divorced from that land. I hope every encouragement will be given to the establishment of a research station on the West coast. We hear that one is coming. But, as in the case of everything else, we ask " When? " When the research station is started, there must be close liaison with the local schools. We must teach the local children the geology, botany and zoology of the locality, in which we hope they will remain and live. In order that they may know how best to improve their own surroundings they must have practical knowledge of the locality. If that is done it will have a tremendous effect on the waste land of the Highlands of Scotland. As has been pointed out by the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts), modern machinery can play in important part. With the use of modern machinery and new scientific knowledge we have a foundation for the solution of the problem in the Highlands today.
It has already been shown that the hill cattle scheme has been of benefit to small holders in my constituency. Its effect has already been shown in the markets. Calves which would otherwise have been sold are being retained for breeding purposes. It is for that reason that many hon. Members have said the subsidy must be carried on for a much longer period, in order to give these farmers a chance. Whatever the policy may be, there must be a longer term of subsidy. Possibly it will be changed in years to come, but at the moment we must give the farmers the assurance that it will go on for many more years than stipulated in this Bill. On the question of the regulations in regard to " muirburn "I would have thought that if a man took reasonable precautions and due care, his liability should then cease. Under afforestation schemes very good tracts of land are left to waste because of the fear of fire. Fire breaks between farms in afforestation schemes should be compulsory.
Turning to the Second Schedule, there is a point which I hope will be raised in Committee. In paragraph 4 no suggestion has been made with regard to ascertaining

the stock ewe value. Stock ewe lambs are seldom, if ever, sold or offered for sale. Would it not be better to have the value of a stock ewe lamb taken as the price of the wether lamb plus 50 or 60 per cent. Is it not also impracticable, where there is already a panel of arbiters, to have dual price finding? Paragraph 6 (a) says:
 Ewes of all ages (including gimmers) shall be valued at the basic ewe value with the addition of 15s. per head.
Why is that a static figure? It would be more practicable, and fairer, if there were a percentage of the basic ewe value. Surely it is not equity to have a ewe valued at 80s. receiving the extra 15s. and a ewe valued at 40s. receiving the same additional figure? How much of the £4 million is allotted to Scotland? I hope all of it is, because Scotland certainly needs it. I hope the money to be spent on the improvements will not be wasted by the intrusion of the Forestry Commission, but that there must be cooperation beforehand. There is room for both, and we hope both will play their part to the benefit of the nation. I trust that the Bill will increase the production from our hills and that the primary producers will obtain a fair price for their products, and security of tenure on their land. Hill shepherds, like other agricultural workers, require attractive wages and conditions. We must see that the farmers are able to give those things to them. Thus we may stop the drift away from the hills. We must stand by that fine race of men which have stood by us so nobly in the past.

7.59 p.m.

Mr. Steele: First I should like to congratulate the Joint Under-Secretary on the most able manner in which he moved the Second Reading of this Bill. I am very proud indeed to do so, in view of personal circumstances of which he himself will be very well aware. I think all Members of the House have agreed that this industry is in a very bad way. The hon. Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) said that this was a burning question. I agree. We have an old saying in Scotland when someone is not meeting requirements, that he is " not setting the heather on fire." While these projects are good enough in their way, I do not think the method suggested to make these improvements will set the heather on fire.
Certain general principles have been discussed very fully. For instance, compulsion. The hon. Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) and another hon. Member have also mentioned this point. I do not think this Bill gives the Minister sufficient power to carry through his schemes. In the Balfour of Burleigh Report, on page 59, paragraph 166, we find:
Cases will also arise of failure of both landlord and tenant to submit a programme. This raises an equally important issue.
It goes on to say what might happen, and adds:
In cases where the farm may reasonably be regarded as a continuing concern and a programme of improvements is desirable, the Department should be empowered to serve an Order on the parties concerned directing the submission of a programme.
With that I fully agree. It is one of the main issues with which we ought to concern ourselves tonight. We agree in principle that something ought to be done, and something must be done. My hon. Friend below the Gangway put forward some very pertinent points, some of which I myself have considered, but I see no alternative at the moment to continuing the subsidy. I am not inclined to nationalise the bad land; when we come to nationalisation of the land, I want the good as well as the bad.
In the Balfour Report one of the points made was that if anything is to be done at all it should be done in an organised fashion with ordered programmes. What has happened to this principle? Do the Government accept it? Do they agree with that ideal? There is no sign of it in this Bill. The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, when he opened the discussion of this Measure, said that when the other agricultural Measures come before the House there will be provision for compulsion if necessary. That indicates that consideration has been given to this important point, and makes me believe that it will ultimately come about. Why not now? Every farmer will agree that a bad farmer is a liability as a neighbour, and I see no possibility of bringing into existence what we want unless there are compulsory powers included in the Bill. I would suggest that the executive committees, which have had considerable experience during the war years and which know exactly what the position is, should have the necessary powers to

initiate schemes of development. In any case when a scheme is proposed those committees will obviously be there to advise. Is it not only right that when they come to consider a particular scheme, and find that to carry it out it will be necessary to include other land from other estates, that they should have the necessary powers to initiate these other schemes? It should be done in an ordered fashion, and I cannot see that under the provisions of this Bill. I think we ought to hear something more from the Minister than we have heard 'so far; he ought to take heed of the feeling of the House on this particular matter.
As we must necessarily have compulsion, we ought also to attend to security of tenure, about which there is nothing in this Bill. If at all possible the Minister ought to indicate tonight what the position is to be and whether he intends bringing forward legislation in this connection. Is it under consideration? We cannot expect people to make plans and submit programmes if they do not know when they will be turned out. Those are the two main problems which may arise under this Bill. There are many other things which can be considered in Committee—for instance, I should like to know whether Clause 3 gives the tenant the necessary powers to carry out the work, or must he have the consent of the landlord? It says in the Bill that all those interested in the land must be consulted; will this apply, in particular, to a farm that has been mortgaged? Will the mortgagee have to be consulted? There are many other little points like that about which we shall want to know.
The hon. Member for West Perth emphasised the need for publicity. I hope the Minister will give the necessary publicity and, if we do not get compulsory powers, I hope the executive committees will be instructed to encourage the farmers to enter into these schemes. There are other points I should like to raise, but there are many other hon. Members who desire to speak, and in conclusion I will only refer to heather burning. It is not unknown in Scotland to have snow after 16th April, and I would like to know whether the Minister has consulted the National Farmers' Union and other people concerned about the date he has fixed. Probably he has, but we shall be able to investigate this point still further in Committee. I hope we shall hear some-


thing from the Minister in his reply regarding the question of compulsion and security of tenure. I shall give my support to this Bill and hope that we may be able to amend it in Committee.

8.10 p.m.

Lord William Scott: In common with previous speakers on this Bill I wish to welcome it, and I should like to congratulate the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland upon his opening speech, with all of which, with one or two small exceptions, I was in complete agreement. I thought it was extremely well expressed. It certainly seemed to meet the case which affects us in the Border country. I believe that this Bill, once we have dealt with it in Committee, and by the time that it leaves the House, will be a very effective instrument for dealing with the difficulties in the hill farming industry. Every one in this House and who is engaged in agriculture in Britain is fully aware of the many, many years of extreme difficulty which the hill farming industry has experienced. I do not think that much more could be done in the preliminary stages, than is done in this Bill. I have no doubt that if in the initial stages it proves a success, we shall have no difficulty in securing a larger amount of money at a later stage to continue the good work.
There is, however, one matter that really does rather concern me, and which has not yet been mentioned in the Debate. That is the question of supply and demand. We know that if the hill farmers had been asked what they wanted in any Act of Parliament, to give them a satisfactory basis for their farming, they would have said the same as all the other farmers in Britain—that they wanted an assured market, and a guaranteed price. We know that in this branch of farming it is almost, if not quite, impossible to give them either an assured market or a guaranteed price for their principal products, which are lambs, and, of course, wool. It does seem that, during the last 20 or 30 years, when hill farming has been at its worst, one of the primary causes of that condition has been, that the supply of lambs has exceeded the demand; because during several of these years, when the hill farmers were suffering the very greatest adversity, the lowland farmers, or those farmers down in the South of England who buy our lambs

from the North, were doing reasonably well compared with the general trend of farming at that period.
This possibility does rather frighten me. Suppose this Bill is a really great success, and that it does restore fertility to hill farms, and does remove sickness and mortality from the flocks. Are we, once again, to have a supply of lambs at the autumn sales greater than the demand? Because the price which the farmers have been receiving over the last 20 or 30 years was largely based on supply and demand. We know that the buyers will pay a better price for the good stock than for the poor, a better price for that in good condition than for that in poor condition; but we also know that the basic level on which prices run at a sale of hill lambs or, for that matter, of any lambs—in the autumn is governed by the condition that the supply is equal to, below, or greater than the demand. We know that at present the hill farms in Scotland and elsewhere are not producing anything like the number of lambs of which they are capable, and that there is considerable sickness and mortality, not only among the lambs, but also among the breeding ewes. We believe that can, to a large extent, be eradicated, although it will take time. We are also 'aware that during the war years the stock of breeding ewes in Great Britain has been reduced from round about 12,000,000 to, I believe, slightly under 8,000,000, and that at the present moment there are just under 5,000,000 breeding ewes on the hill farms. If this Hill Farming Bill really is a success, and does bring that degree of fertility back to the hill farms and does remove that sickness and mortality from the flocks, are we then, once again, to be confronted with the terrible problem of having more sellers than there are buyers?
I do believe that in the process of spending these very considerable sums on the rehabilitation of the industry—and we all recognise that the restoration of fertility to the farms is absolutely essential—we should, at the same time, explore all possibilities for increasing the demand for the products which we hope to produce. Are we doing all we can to examine the possibilities for those types of wool which are grown in Great Britain? As one coming from an area which is industrial as well as agricultural, I know to what


an extent our manufacturers prefer foreign-grown fleeces, as being more suitable for their manufactures. I believe that time spent in trying to find uses for British fleeces, and in encouraging the demand for our lambs, would do just as much to help the industry as this Bill, which I have great pleasure in welcoming.

8.18 p.m.

Mr. Collins: I think this Debate has revealed a very considerable measure of agreement, and that a great deal of information, detailed information and knowledge, has been displayed by hon. Members taking part. One thing that has particularly impressed me is the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) referred to the necessity of security of tenure and a degree of compulsion as two of the prime essentials for any successful rehabilitation of hill farming; and that those two points have been supported from every part of the House. I think that that fact is extremely impressive. I do not see how we can have this compulsion and security of tenure unless the land is eventually acquired by the State. The greater part of Exmoor lies in my constituency, and, therefore, with one reservation, which I will deal with later on, I extend an especially warm welcome to this Bill, which proposes to spend some £5 million on the improvement of our hill farms, subject to the expenditure of a like amount by the owners of the land. I think that this is honouring a debt to the land, a debt which has been incurred through the neglect of the land over the last 50 years. It is just one of the many debts which this Government and this generation are called upon to honour.
I wish to affirm my conviction that any Measure which is designed to increase the productivity of our land will receive the full support of the House, and that is particularly true at the present time. Considering that we have a total area of 15,500,000 acres of hill farm land in the United Kingdom, it is obvious, apart from the question of labour and materials, that a total expenditure of £10,000,000 can envisage only a very limited productivity, and no large-scale operations can be undertaken; certainly there can be no very large immediate increase of food production. It is for that reason that I would urge priority be given to those areas which are likely to produce the best results in the

shortest time, and that a further priority should be given in allowing money for the various types of improvements included in the First Schedule.
To give an example, on Exmoor grids are most urgently needed. This is of vital concern to the local branch of the National Farmers Union, as well as to the Exmoor Pony Society. The loss of the gates which formerly barred roads across the Moor and prevented stock from straying means that a large area has become of considerably less value for grazing. Stock stray down the public roads where they are often killed, and in consequence farmers will not use this land for grazing. I do not know who was formerly responsible for the maintenance of gates, but I do not think there is a gate left on Exmoor; all that is left are the posts and the old names. I suggest that grids should be provided and that a bypass gate should be put for horses and carts. I know one large portion of the Moor where corn was grown during the war. This land is now under grass, but that expenditure is utterly useless for grazing purposes unless proper barriers are provided. If this provision is made, it will be possible to graze the Moors again with sheep and cattle. This also has a bearing in connection with the Exmoor ponies. I read that an Exmoor stallion and mare were being exhibited in the London Zoo, which proves their claim to be the only native breed of pony preserved in its original state, because the Zoological Society do not accept other than wild species. The spread of bracken on the Moor is largely due to understocking. Sheep used to eat the young gorse shoots, and cattle trod down the bracken. Bracken has now got the upper hand, because we have no sheep or cattle to keep down the gorse and bracken or facilities to cut it.
It would therefore be of distinct advantage if attention were paid to the question of gateways and barriers. Reference was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury (Mr. Alpass) to the First Schedule. One item I can readily support as being subject for amendment, but I suggest that the Minister should take another look to see whether it is not possible to divide the Schedule into two parts. To include the making and improvements to roads and bridges, watercourses, permanent fences, their removal and restoration, drainage, and matters of that kind as suitable for grants


under this Bill, but that the other items, such as farm buildings and farm houses, should be subjects for a loan. If we wish to help the farmers to the utmost possible extent and achieve maximum production, some adjustments must be made in Committee to this Bill, We can then achieve the objective we all have at heart, the desire to assist the farmer to improve the productivity of his land, and in particular to assist our badly neglected hill farms to achieve a much greater degree of efficiency, enabling them to play their part in the main agricultural policy of the Government.

8.28 p.m.

Mr. Vane: I must begin my speech by declaring my interest. Like the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. Scott-Elliot), I am an owner of some hill land. It is not very extensive and it is in fair condition, like his, and therefore neither of us should be in any danger of being dispossessed by the first sweep of the axe of the hon. Member for Thombury (Mr. Alpass). I would add my plea to that of my neighbour the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts), in asking for a definition of what is and what is not a hill farm. This should be made very clear; the Bill as drafted is somewhat vague. If the interpretation is made too narrow, we shall lose a very large part of the great advantages which this Measure is capable of giving. I hope that the Government may see fit to include a great deal of the lower land, or rather marginal land, within the scope of this Measure. In the De La Warr Report, hill land and uplands were treated as one, and not two separate problems, and I hope that in this Bill we may follow the same lines. I am sure that it is an artificial distinction to draw a line very high up the hillside and treat hill sheep as an entirely separate problem. The main reason which prevents a hill farmer from increasing stock is the difficulty of wintering, finding winter keep and hay. In consequence, hill farmers have to winter their lambs on the lower ground, and, owing to the large increase in arable acreage, they have to pay a considerable sum for this hogg wintering as it is called in my part of England. If the Minister can see his way to include a certain amount of marginal land, many hill farmers will be able to winter their lambs on their farms, or near their farms, and so save themselves this

extra expense, and increase the nation's food supply at the same time.
Secondly, I should like again to support the plea, made by the same hon. Member, that we should attach great importance to the question of cattle. At the present moment, there is scarcely a mention of cattle in the Bill. All the emphasis is on sheep. I do not think that it is enough for the Minister merely to say that we are increasing fertility of the land. He should try to let us know whether he wishes cattle to be carried on the hill for milk or to be reared and sold off the hill as stores. It may seem strange to some hon. Members in Westmorland, the county which I have the honour to represent, that 63 per cent. of all the farmers who receive the hill sheep subsidy are also selling milk in one form or another. I think that should be sufficient reason to show that to try to treat hill sheep farming as a special problem is really artificial.
Not so long ago, I heard the Minister, when speaking at a N.F.U. meeting in Carlisle, say in answer to a question that he would listen most carefully and sympathetically to all suggestions made to "him for the improvement of this Bill during its several stages. I hope that he has not forgotten that promise. Farmers in the north of England are hoping for one thing above all others, and that is that he will amend the Schedule so that expenditure on electricity supply is not restricted only to private plants, but will also include connection to the main grid. Secondly, they are very anxious to have the telephone. Although this may sound rather strange, it is really not so. The connection of the telephone to a farm which lies a long way from the main road may cost a large sum, but if a farmer can communicate with the local town he is often saved a great deal of time motoring long distances or waiting for buses, and the extra time which he can spend on his farm means extra food.
I hope that when the Minister comes to reply, he will be able to prevent friction between forestry and hill farming from developing. Unfortunately, we have already seen signs of it during today's Debate. It is only, I think, in this country, of all the countries of Western Europe, where this friction between forestry and agriculture exists. In most of the countries of Western Europe, the two are knit very closely together, and I hope that we may soon have the same thing here.
I hope that the Minister will let us know a little more about the advisory committees, their duties and composition, and that, at least, the appointments to them will not be political but on account of the knowledge and ability of the members to assist the industry. I think that we all hope that the Minister will press forward with this Bill and give every encouragement to the voluntary improvement schemes to be promoted under it. When pressed by his colleague the hon. Gentleman the Minister of Food, I hope, too, that he will not forget the motto,
I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, whence cometh my help.
He should not forget, what I am sure is the case, that when the Psalmist wrote those words he was not only thinking of mountain tops, but the marginal land, and not only of hill sheep but of cattle as well.

8.34 p.m.

Mr. Watkins: May I add a contribution to the very good Debate which we have had today? I want the voice of Wales to be heard as a very definite voice welcoming this Bill. We were fortunate in my constituency in getting a local representative on the committee, and I want to pay tribute to the committee for England and Wales and to our own representative, although he was my opponent at the last General Election. In my constituency, every county, with the exception of one, is interested in hill farming. In my own constituency there are 2,003 flock groups and only 10 of them have over 1,000 sheep. I think it is one of the most important Bills that have been introduced into this House of Commons, and it will have great significance for Wales. The only criticism by representatives on the local Farmers Union and by individual hill fanners which I have encountered is that it docs not go far enough in its financial provisions. My advice to people who have mentioned this to me has been to wait for five years and see how it works. At the end of that time we can ask the Minister of Agriculture to afford greater financial assistance.
No doubt that will bring criticisms from some of my colleagues. In reply to criticisms I would ask, Who are the hill farmers? Are they speculators from the city or are they landowners? They are

owner occupiers, and I would ask the hon. Member for Thornbury (Mr. Alpass) what his policy is in regard to the owner occupier. He produces food on his land. He should remember that there are 15,443 people getting the hill sheep subsidy in England and Wales, and only 93 of them have over 1,000 sheep. There are no big farmers, and, therefore, there is no justification for the recent criticism we have heard. After all, hill farmers are hard working men and women. They have worked themselves up from farm labourers, and they have got the worst end of the industry—on the hilltops where the conditions are far worse than they are for the normal farmer. Their shift in winter is 24 hours a day, which means the round of the clock, and I am glad to pay tribute to these people who have stout hearts but slender resources.
There are many points which I should like to raise but no doubt a good many of them can be dealt with on the Committee stage. I should like a clear definition of hill farming, particularly in Wales, and I should also like to know if this covers unenclosed land, the grazing rights of which are enjoyed by commoners. I should like to know too, whether the ordinary farm is to be left out of the description of a hill farm. A hill farmer wrote to me and suggested 32 improvements which could be incorporated in the Bill, and I am glad that 21 of those are in the First Schedule. I should also like to ask with regard to No. 12 of the First Schedule what is meant by waste land. I may get an explanation of that in Committee. I should be glad if the Minister could say that electricity mains can be tapped by the hill fanners, and that they will not be confined to what is provided in the Schedule. I should like to see the extension of the telephone service even to the isolated farms. When we discuss the question of farm machinery, I hope that some specific assurance will be given by the Minister in regard to machinery for these small farms because heavy tractors or anything of that kind are not suitable for them. I hope he will look at that. May I emphasise the necessity for the improvement of bridges and roads, because it is no use providing fertilisers and machinery if they cannot be taken to the farm? I am glad that there is a provision in the First Schedule for such improvements, because it is no use a fanner making the private


approaches all right if the local authorities do not attend to the public roadways and bridges. I hope that the local authorities in Wales will listen to my appeal in this matter and that it may lead to the improvement of certain roads which I have in mind. I would also like to know whether a tenant farmer can carry out a scheme without the consent of the landlord.
To me the objects of the Bill are very definite. In this time of food shortage I think it will make for a good send off for those who have to produce the food we need. I welcome the suggestion which is incorporated in the Bill, that there should be a Welsh sub-committee. I hope that on that committee there will be people of experience of hill farming. That applies to the local advisory committees as well. My answer to the criticism which has been levelled against Wales is that it must be remembered that South Wales could be the biggest market for agricultural produce grown in Wales. But how could Wales be expected to do what was necessary under our past system? There has not been price stabilisation. Farmers will now get that. Let us give them a chance to show what they can do. I am a great advocate of nationalisation, but I would not advocate it unless another system had failed, and, so far, I do not think a real opportunity has been given to the hill farmer.
I want young people to enter into the industry. I want a young man to be able to marry and settle down on a hill farm. I hope this Bill will provide that security and the social amenities which will enable young men to do that. Rip Van Winkle, it is said, slept for 100 years, and when he woke up found great changes. If he had gone to sleep in 1875 and had woke up in 1946 he would not have found much change. But if he could go to sleep in 1946 and awaken again in five years' time to see the Minister of Agriculture I hope he would see my hon. Friend with a great big smile on his face because of the operations of this Bill. That will be possible if we carry through this Bill and, with it, a progressive agricultural policy.

8.44 p.m.

Mr. Drayson: I think it has been made abundantly dear in the Debate that this Bill arises out of Reports made by two Committees which were set up by the Coalition Government. I refer par-

ticularly to the Dc La Warr Report for England and Wales, because farmers in my constituency had the opportunity of giving evidence before that committee when it met in the North of England. I think it is a pity that the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland should have marred his introduction of the Bill by his references to land nationalisation, because I believe that many farmers will be reluctant to accept State aid if they feel that it is merely a preliminary to the Government taking over their farms. It is a pity that the Minister of Agriculture should have joined the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this habit of giving concessions on the one hand and making threats on the other. It is unlikely that farmers will he anxious to increase the fertility of their soil if it is merely to be for the benefit of the Government. I think this reference by the Under-Secretary of State was very unfair in view of the fine effort which farmers have made during the war.
The first matter to which I wish to draw attention is the small amount of money to be expended under the Bill. The amount is £5 million only over the period. It would be far better if it were £5 million per year. I do not think that, in advocating a larger sum, I am encouraging the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Government in the spiral of inflation into which they are getting, because I think that money given to the agricultural community could not go into better hands. I hope we shall be told that money will be available at cheap rates of interest for the 50 per cent, which the farmers are to be called upon to produce. The point has already been made in the Debate that the definitions in the Bill are far from clear. I know of the misunderstanding that there has been in my constituency among farmers who felt they were entitled to receive the present subsidy, and I hope by the time the Bill reaches its final stage any possibility of misunderstandings in the future will have been cleared up. It is possible that during the past year the county war agricultural committees have made a survey of those parts of the country where the Bill is likely to be effective. It would be helpful if the farmers could see graphically on a map exactly how they stand as regards the Bill. I am thinking particularly of certain areas in my constituency—Rathmell Moor, Tosside, and Forest of


Bowland—which, while they may not at present be accepted under the existing scheme, require a great deal of work to be done and money spent so that they can play their full part in the national agriculture.
The question of amenities has already been raised. I would like to emphasise the importance of allowing connection to the grid system to be included under the First Schedule, or in any case that there should be a contribution towards the cost of transformers. I hope the Minister of Agriculture will have some influence upon the Minister of Fuel and Power in persuading him to bring current to the outlying neighbourhoods. The right hon. Gentleman has not had much success with the Minister of Health with regard to the Housing (Rural Workers) Act; perhaps he will have more success with the Minister of Fuel and Power in getting the grid extended to the hill areas. Telephones, too, are of great importance. One matter which has been completely omitted from the Bill is reference to the disposal of wool and a guaranteed minimum price for this commodity to the hill farmers, which they have not got at present.
Another item of importance is the availability of fertilisers for hill land. Many attempts were made during the war to reseed on high ground; the farmers now find that they are able to get permits for fertilisers, and this land is rapidly going back to its original state and will once more be regarded as marginal land. One small way in which the Minister could help the hill farmers would be to increase the price he gets for his butter; at least double the price which the farmer obtains at present would still not be adequate. If this were done, there would be more skimmed milk available for rearing calves and pigs. Finally, I hope that, in the various committees that are to be set up, due regard will be given to local knowledge and experience, and that nominations from the National Farmers' Union and other similar bodies will find a prominent place. Practical experience was not always conspicuous in committees that were set up during the war, and I hope this will be remedied in the future. I welcome this Bill, even though it is comparatively limited in its scope, because I know it will be of benefit to the hill farming community.

8.50 p.m.

Mr. J. J. Robertson: It is not without some little feeling of hesitancy that I enter the Debate at such a late hour, fully aware that my remarks must be very largely compressed and, indeed, that many of the points which I had hoped to make have been more ably covered by the galaxy of speakers in various parts of the House who have dealt with this matter from the technical point of view. I, of course, cannot approach it from that angle because I am not a farmer; my life has been spent at sea and I hope the House will bear with me if I appear to be at sea now, although I am going to deal not with technicalities but with principles.
There are two main problems in Scotland. I have the honour to represent one of the parts of Scotland where we have a large number of very industrious hill sheep farmers round the foothills of the Lammermuir Hills. In the Highlands and Islands the problem affects the crofting industry, but I will not attempt to deal with that. Perhaps the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. M. Macmillan) may catch your eye later, Mr. Speaker, and deal with that problem. As I have said, I wish to refer to the principles of this Bill, which is at best only a salvage Measure. The Labour Government have inherited this legacy of long generations of neglect of this very important part of the agricultural industry and we can at this stage deal with it only by introducing this salvage Measure.
The criticism which I have of this Bill is that I think we are rather over-generous to the landowning fraternity. I think the Minister would have been well advised had he looked at this Bill very carefully before he took it over from the Coalition. It was produced as a result very largely of a committee which was set up in Scotland; no fewer than half its members were landowners, and, most significant of all, there was not one hill sheep farmer on that Balfour Committee. However, here it is and we have to deal with it. I hope it will not become law in its present form but that the Minister will consider in Committee the various proposals which will be placed before him. If I might make a suggestion, it is that the taxpayers, who are to make this grant to the landowning fraternity, should insist that where a grant is being made there is some return and some conditions are laid down whereby the


landowner cannot evict a tenant farmer who is an efficient farmer. If that can be done, many of the apprehensions in the minds of farmers today will be removed. I earnestly plead with the Minister to do this.
In this year of 1946 the farmers of Britain are still asking for security of tenure. When one remembers that in the Crofters Acts some 60 years ago, the crofters in Scotland gained security of tenure while the farmers have not yet obtained that concession, one would hope that this might be an occasion when the Minister might make some attempt to insist that where a landowner is securing a grant from public funds one of the conditions under which ho receives it shall be that an efficient farmer who has farmed his land shall not be disturbed and shall have security of tenure. While I have certain misgivings about the Bill I must confess that it is very necessary to have some regulation at a very early date to overcome the tragic neglect of long years of private ownership of land. The Bill would seem to go some way at least towards that goal. When all is said and done, we must admit that the ultimate solution to this great problem is public ownership of the land, which will then be used in the interests of the whole community. That position may be coming very shortly. I hope that it will come. In the meantime we have to accept the Bill as a salvage Measure. It is one about which we are by no means all happy on this side of the House, but we think it a step in the direction of bringing a little prosperity into this neglected section of the industry.

8.56 p.m.

Mr. E. L. Gandar Dower: I would congratulate the Minister on the Bill, which is receiving backing from all quarters of the House. I shall confine my remarks to its effect on Scotland, where hill farming is vital to the small crofter as well as to the large proprietor. I am interested, with other hon. Members, to note in what proportion it is proposed to split the financial grant between England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland.
I would like to put forward an anxiety that has been expressed to me, by knowledgable farmers in Sutherlandshire, and I believe there is a similar disquietude among the breeders in black-faced sheep

in Highland and Border counties. I refer to the average value of the ewe as laid down in the Bill. It is a valuation which also affects the lamb value. The proposed Bill cancels the practice of ewe valuation which has existed in Sutherlandshire for at least 60 years, and fixes an arbitrary figure of 15s. for younger ages. That figure of 15s. is to be found in the Second Schedule, in page 28, paragraph 3 (a). This arbitrary allowance is causing anxiety. If the House will bear with me I will point out the effect of the old practice and the new. Let us take a hypothetical figure of £3 14s., as a three-year sale average for cast ewes, and add, shall we say, 4 lbs. of wool at 1s. 11½d. per 1b. We thus arrive at a total of £4 1s. 10d. To this figure, under the old method, would be added 25 per cent., say, £1 0s. 6d., representing younger-aged ewes. This gives a sale figure of £5 2s. 4d. for the average ewe. Under the proposed Bill, the figure of £4 1s. 10d. would remain the same, but the fixed allowance of 15s. for younger-aged ewes would bring the figure to £4 16s. 10d. only, thus showing a loss of 5s. 6d. between the old and the new methods of valuation. There would also be a loss on ewe lambs, as the Bill does not propose to include it at 60 per cent, increase on the wedder lamb price. This has been the normal practice in Sutherlandshire for more than 60 years.
It will be seen that over a reasonably large farm of 2,000 to 4,000 breeding ewes the loss would be considerable. Without going into details, the effect of the new value applied to a sale of 400 ewes which took place on 23rd May at Achinduich would have led to a loss of £350, or 17s. 6d. for each lamb plus ewe. I should be pleased to give these figures to the Minister if he would like to have them. I hope it may be possible to give consideration to this matter in Committee and perhaps include in the Bill an optional valuation method if it is proved that this one would, in special cases, cause hardship. In common with other Members, I hope this Bill will lead to the improvement of the crofter's home by the introduction of drainage and water supply, which I am pledged to fight for and support. During the last six weeks, by courtesy of the Swiss Government, I have had the privilege of visiting hydro-electric stations at Handeck, Innertkuchen, Kandergrund and Verbois and I found


that electricity had been carried to the smallest village and the smallest home for more than 40 years. I cannot therefore understand why the hill farmer's croft should remain an uncomfortable curiosity.

9.2 p.m.

Mr. Baldwin: As a farmer, I want to make it clear that I have no financial interest in hill farming. My interest is very largely on the lines of the first paragraph of the De La Warr Report, which draws attention to the hardy sheep and cattle coming off the hill farms and says that they also carry a characteristically hardy, intelligent, and self-reliant, though dwindling, population. It is from that point of view that I want to deal with this Bill. In my opinion, the lifeblood of this country and the Empire has been founded from the hardy reliant men and women who have come off our hills, and if we do not reinstate those people on the hills the nation will lose its virile character and grow soft. I welcome this Bill wholeheartedly.
I would like to see the definition of what is hill land made clear. I hope that when that definition is formed, due regard will be taken to include what in Wales is known as intake or lower enclosure land, and in some parts, as marginal land. I have seen those fields gradually becoming covered with fern and being neglected. I hope that land will be covered in the definition of hill farms. I also hope that the land will be scheduled before any project is put forward. The hon. and gallant Member for Richmond (Sir T. Dugdale) very rightly said that this land should be scheduled as between forest land and farm land. There should be no competition. There should be agreement and none of the land of those hills should be left idle. If forestry and the rehabilitation of these farmlands are carried out together, that will help to build up something which I look upon as extremely important in these hill districts, and that is a community. At the present time, people who live on those hills live an absolutely solitary life. They get no amenities and they get no transport because it would not be worth while running transport to those districts. I hope that when these projects are tackled these hills will be made to do their job to the full, and we shall see little

communities growing up in the hills such as existed 70 or 80 years ago.
One last word on what is a rather vexed question—tied cottages. I hope that when we come to the Committee stage we shall be able to thresh this out a little more fully. I am very sorry indeed to see that the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture has weakened because of what is reputed to be a certain amount of pressure from his back benchers. I hope he will take courage and reinstate what in my opinion is the most important part of this scheme, the reconditioning and the building of cottages. I do not know whether hon. Gentlemen who speak with so much bias about tied cottages are speaking from experience or only from a prejudice to which they have listened, but I have been in a fairly big area for 45 years and the cases of hardship from tied cottages with which I have come into contact have been infinitesimal. There is one case which has recently arisen in my own constituency which could be advertised as an objection to the tied cottage and that is a man of 72 who has to give up his cottage. The answer to that is. Build some council houses where these old men can go when they want to draw their pension and live in comfort for the rest of their lives. I wholeheartedly agree with this Bill. In regard to nationalisation, all I can say is that, if I ever see nationalisation, it will give me satisfaction that the consumers of this country will at last pay an economic price for their food.

9.8 p.m.

Mr. Dye (Norfolk, South-Western): We are getting near the end of this Debate and I think the agricultural community can rest assured that, so far as agricultural interests are concerned, they are being well looked after in this House. The Debate has been sustained for a fairly long time, and I approach the Second Reading of this Bill as part of the general agricultural problem of this country. I do not think that in approaching the agricultural problem we should come to this House from the point of view of getting what financial advantage we can for some of our constituents. This system has been followed in other countries and it would be a real danger to democracy. It is for that reason that I am critical of this Bill, in so far as it extends the system of giving subsidies to


agriculture and, in this particular case, mainly to the owners of land. There is a, danger in that respect, and the whole trend of our agricultural policy should be put on a firmer basis; we should aim at getting a fair price for all the produce that we can get, and the growers should be asked to produce things of such quality that the consumers will be glad to pay a decent price for them.
So far as this Bill extends the old system of subsidising the landowner, I condemn it, because I think it is on the wrong lines. I am in very good company in condemning the system of further subsidies to agriculture for, after all, it is not so long ago since the right hon. Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) said in this House that he had consistently warned farmers against relying on subsidies, on the ground that sooner or later the Chancellor of the Exchequer would kick. I do not know whether in a few minutes the right hon. Gentleman will rise and give his blessing to this Bill; if so, it seems to me that he will be inconsistent in his attitude towards agriculture. [AN HON. MEMBER: " Not the first time."] It may not be the first time, let us hope it will be the last because, sooner or later, we want to get agriculture out of the position of asking for, and being granted, further subsidies to tide it over another difficult period.
Another aspect of this problem with which I am concerned is that it is just dealing with part of the problem of hill farming. We all recognise that all the hills cannot be farmed and we have to decide on the best use of hill land. Some of it should be used for afforestation and some for grazing. This party has always been interested in the question of access to hill land by the general public, particularly from the urban areas, for health and recreation. Unless we deal with the hill problem with these three things in mind, we are liable to make a mess of dealing with part of it. I would rather have seen a proper survey before we started on this problem; I would rather we had decided which hill lands should be used for afforestation, which for grazing, and where youth hostels and such places should be situated. That seems to me the wisest course to take.
There is time to make a proper survey before we start on the problem. A day
or two ago we were discussing the problem

of food. This Bill deals with the increase of livestock. It is no good breeding more sheep and cattle on the hills if there are not enough feeding stuffs to fatten them. In recent weeks I have seen mutton in London which people cannot possibly eat. It is too lean and too tough. Human beings are eating the maize, oats and barley which would have been available for fattening livestock this coming winter but for "the great food shortage. We know the shortage of feeding stuffs will go on for the next year or two, and we are told that we must concentrate on growing food for direct human consumption. Therefore, this Bill should wait a little longer, so that we could give all our attention to the problem of feeding the people with grain from our fields. There is time to give prior consideration to the problem of the proper use of our hill land and its proper planning so that we fit in the needs of agriculture and afforestation and dovetail that into the great problem of using the hill lands as health resorts.
Another problem on which I would like to touch is that of housing the workers. We have recently considered a Bill for the proper housing of the working people of this country. It seems wrong in principle to bring into another Bill, dealing with farming, the question of housing the workers or providing grants for that housing. I would much rather that the workers on the hill farms were catered for through the local authorities by grants made to them under another Measure. The housing of workers in the hill lands should be planned in groups so that all modern amenities could be granted and the houses provided by local authorities.

9.15 p.m.

Mr. R. S. Hudson: We have listened to a very full Debate, and I agree with the hon. Member for Southwest Norfolk (Mr. Dye) that it is significant. I believe it is hopeful for the future of agriculture that on a Bill which might otherwise be regarded as rather a dull Bill, we have found, on all sides of the House, Members anxious to make their contribution. I am afraid that a number will still be disappointed through not having caught your eye, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Perhaps if the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland had realised how much interest the House would take in the Bill, he might have given us a rather more interesting intro-


ductory speech. It was not really worthy of him. The Scots usually have great imagination. If he will forgive me for saying so, it was a rather pedestrian performance, based no doubt on the dull brief with which the Scottish Office had provided him. With his reputation, we had expected something rather better from him.
This Bill is really the result of two committees, one for England and Wales, which was set up by myself, and one for Scotland, which was set up by the late Secretary of State. I do not know the composition of the Scottish committee, but I can assure the hon. Member for South-West Norfolk that the English committee did not consist predominantly of landowners. In fact, I think there were only two—possibly only one—who could be called landowners. For the most part, the others were experts and two were scientists. I do not think anyone can accuse the English committee of being unduly biased in its composition "by reason of the number of landowners on it. If I might offer a word of advice to hon. Members opposite who have spoken in this Debate, I would say that it would be well if, before they come to the Committee stage, they would study those two reports, which are valuable and interesting documents. If they did so they would find that the real reason why hill farming is in its present state, and the real reason why the Government have to come forward with this Bill, is partly because of world conditions but mostly because of a fundamental change in the taste of the British public.
In the old days, when mil farming flourished, the British public liked four and five year old wethers, but since the growth of cheap Canterbury lamb the public taste has changed the whole composition—the sex and age composition—of the flocks on the hills. The result is that now there is a great preponderance of ewes, with the inevitable result that they take much more out of the land than did the wethers of olden days. I have heard it said, that in Scotland there is actually more milk produced by ewes than by cows there. Anyone knows that the ewe or cow takes a great deal more out of the land in the shape of phosphates and other minerals. It is due to the fundamental change in the public taste

that over a period of years the actual land, the soil itself, has steadily deteriorated. I do not for one moment admit, and I do not suppose that the Minister of Agriculture would admit, that this is a Bill designed to help landlords. It is designed to help agriculture in the feeding of the people of this country. So far from any benefit accruing to the landlord, it will accrue far more to tenants, because, as the hon. Member for Brecon (Mr. Watkins) said, they may also be owners of the land.
In answer to the point made by the hon. Member for Thornbury (Mr. Alpass) that assistance should be in the shape of loans and not grants, I say that if such a change were incorporated in the Bill its usefulness would be destroyed altogether. The very essence of the case for making a grant to help these improvements— especially a grant from State funds—is that the expenditure is wholly uneconomic. For the total expenditure on any improvement scheme, the Government cannot possibly hope to receive any economic return in cash. All that can be hoped is that a certain portion of it will so improve the whole land concerned that the occupier, whether he is the unfortunate landlord whose tenant has cleared out, or whether he is a tenant farmer, will in future be able to continue to farm that particular land. The great value of it is uneconomic and, when it has been spent, will have no cash value at all. I think hon. Members opposite ought to try and get that into their heads.
Some comment has been made on the adequacy or otherwise of the £4 million, which might possibly be extended to £5 million. I think that on the whole the Government have made a wise choice. Having regard to the time it will take to get these schemes into operation and to make the necessary survey, and the fact that we are short of labour and machinery and still more short of the necessary fertilisers, I think that the total amount of money which it will be possible physically to spend on these schemes over the next five years will not exceed, even if it reaches, the total of £5 million. There are very great advantages in adopting the line the Government have taken in making this experimental, because during these five years it will be possible to see how the scheme has worked. We shall gain considerable knowledge, and in


the light of that knowledge and experience it will be possible to bring in a new Bill amending this one.
When the right hon. Gentleman replies, I would like him to say a word about the definition of hill land about which some of my hon. Friends entertain certain misgivings. It is mainly a Committee point, but perhaps the Minister could clear it up briefly. Also, we would very much like to hear a little more about what he has in mind concerning the advisory committees. Will the Minister say where they are to be situated and, in particular, whether they will be able to carry out the suggestion made by one of my hon. Friends, namely, that they will cover more than a single county and possibly in the Border counties cooperate with those appointed by the Secretary of State for Scotland? I want to deal with the question of the announcement by the Under-Secretary that item 3 of the Schedule is to be omitted. Personally, I think that is a deplorable decision because it will tend very largely to destroy the value of the Bill. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that if it is omitted, a large number of schemes which otherwise would be put forward will in fact not be able to be carried out.
The hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Lavers), in a speech which we all very much appreciated, said that unless we improved the conditions of people engaged in the industry the industry would not be revived, I could not agree more, but what is the chief condition affecting this industry from the human point of view? Surely, it is the fact that, in a vast number of cases, living conditions under which both the farmer himself, and, more particularly, his shepherds, have lived in the past and are still living today, have been well below the standard of amenity in the towns, and that, unless we are prepared to improve cottages and put in modern conditions, with modern sanitation and so on, and give the man's wife a reasonable place to live in, we shall not get the existing shepherds to stay, and, still more, we shall not get any of the younger generation to come in.
Therefore, the improvement of living conditions is absolutely vital, and hon. Members opposite, in their passion for denouncing tied cottages, or permitting any improvement in tied cottages, are, in fact, whether they realise it or not, deliberately

preventing any improvement in the living conditions of the people involved. It is no use saying that, in the case of a cottage three or four miles up a glen, a local authority must put up another cottage and that, until it does, the existing worker has got to live under the existing conditions. That just means that nothing will be done, and that sheep will be left un-cared for. The essential thing is the improvement of the existing accommodation, and the quickest and most obvious way to do that is to include among the improvements for which grants are made the improvement of the cottage in which the man himself is going to live. It is a perfectly fantastic situation that, if the theories of some hon. Members opposite were carried out, we would be entitled to improve the conditions under which a ram or a bull was going to live, but would not be entitled to improve the conditions under which the unfortunate man would live.

Mr. Alpass: What is to prevent the local authority building the cottage where it is required? If the State gives the money, the cottage will be built.

Mr. Hudson: Anyone who thinks that a local authority in Scotland is going to build a cottage at the cost of some £1,400 or £1,500, at the end of a glen when, by the expenditure of £200, they could improve an existing cottage and make it perfectly habitable, is holding a fantastic view. Even if the expenditure came out of the £4 million, we are not going to get very far. The hon. Gentleman also suggested that nothing should be done in the way of grants and that appropriate land ought to be nationalised. All I can say is that we are already faced with a fantastic expenditure on a national scale, and goodness knows how much money is going to be required annually for all these schemes which are now being passed, such as the nationalisation of the coal mines and of the iron and steel industry and so forth. Anyone who thinks that we can nationalise the land without spending a colossal sum of public money is really living in a fool's paradise.
I remember that, when I was Minister of Agriculture, I went to look at a particular piece of derelict land. It was of considerable acreage, and was potentially good land. In the old days, it had had houses and farmbuildings on it, but they had disappeared in the course of time,


and there is now nothing left, That land, 4,000 or 5,000 acres, was potentially very good land, and I instructed the committee to start reclaiming it. We did reclaim it, and we cropped it for three years. In that time, it became quite clear that we had to try to get a long term policy. We could not go on taking crops all the time. The trouble was that, if we were to crop properly, with livestock and so forth, we had to have cottages and buildings and roads. I instructed the committee to make an estimate of the cost of building the necessary buildings, cottages and roads.
I had it in mind to buy the land at the rate of £3 or £4 an acre and there could not have been a better case for nationalisation. When we made the calculation, we found that, under no conceivable circumstances of prices, could we ever get any possible economic return on the expenditure on that land. The same thing is true of the hill land; it is not an economic proposition, and there is no argument at all from a practical point of view in favour of nationalisation.

Mr. Dye: Surely, that is an argument for the local authority, or the State through the local authority, providing the cottages and the roads to service its own land and to make it a charge on that land.

Mr. Hudson: Who is going to pay?

Mr. Dye: The State.

Mr. Hudson: I do not think that even the present Chancellor of the Exchequer would face up to it. He is trying to get the cost of Government borrowing down, and we would have to borrow at nil per cent, if we wanted to make schemes of that kind work.
There is one final point with regard to forestry. I hope that, when the right hon. Gentleman replies, he will tell us what he has in mind about marrying hill sheep farming and forestry. He will remember that when we were together at the Department and were engaged in getting the Bill through making the Minister of Agriculture personally responsible for forestry, we had it in mind to conduct detailed surveys, at all events in England and Wales, starting with a particular county in Wales, to see how best, in the national interest, we could allocate the land between forestry and hill sheep. Up till now there

has been a conflict between the two. My view is that there ought not to be a conflict between them, but that they ought to be complementary. There are vast areas at present given over to hill sheep farming which could better, from a national point of view, be forestry, and I am certain that there are considerable areas under forestry that ought to be under cattle and sheep. I hope that the Minister will use his powers of compulsion and persuasion with the Forestry Commission for the erection of shelter belts and that he will be fortified by what the two hon. Members below the Gangway have said and will tell the Forestry Commission that they must not look at the matter from an economic and financial point of view. With a view to getting sheep back on to these lands, the Forestry Commission should provide adequate shelter belts. A number of points will arise on the Committee stage, but I have said enough to show that we on this side of the House welcome this Bill and will do all in our power to see that it gets on to the statute book in a practical shape and without too many bad alterations.

9.34 p.m.

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Thomas Williams): This has been a very interesting Debate and although it would be too much to expect complete unanimity in all quarters of the House—neither Departments nor draftsmen have yet reached that stage of perfection—there has been a large measure of general agreement with the Bill as it now stands. It is true that many points of administration have been raised, most of which can, and I am sure will, be dealt with in Committee. Before dealing with these points in detail—I do not propose to deal with all the points that have been raised in all the speeches during the day, otherwise I should be here until midnight or after—I want to remind the House of the real size of the problem with which this Bill is designed to deal. It may not deal with the whole of the problem, but, at least, it is a start.
For the benefit of those hon. Members who were not present when my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland addressed the House, I want to remind them of the figures he gave. He told the House that the rough hill grazing land of Scotland represents no less than 70 per cent, of their total farm land; that in England it represents 17 per cent.;


in Northern Ireland 31 per cent, or 16 million acres all told for the United Kingdom. I gather that of no less than 9 million breeding ewes in England, Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland, something like 4,750,000 are on the hillside, as well as 320,000 cattle. These flocks of hardy mountain ewes are the foundation on which a large part of our sheep raising industry is actually built. Indeed, lowland farmers with better quality grassland are absolutely dependent upon the product of the hills. Without that product of the hills, it would be many years indeed before we were able to restore our livestock population. The two committees which sat, one in Scotland and one in England and Wales, have been referred to many times. May I, at the risk of wasting the time of the House, quote what I regard as one of the most impartial witnesses we have in this country? I refer to Sir George Stapledon. I am not referring to this Bill, but to the general problem. This is what he said:
In my opinion, the interdependence of the different types of land and of the different types of farming has never been sufficiently realised in this country, a fact that has been most painfully manifest with reference to policy and planning. Thus, for example, most informed agriculturists would agree with me when I categorically assert that it would be quite impossible for this country to rear and maintain a sufficient head of livestock in order to produce all the home-grown meat and home-produced milk we shall require unless the very best use is made of our hill lands, and, moreover, we shall be unable to farm our flat lands to full national advantage unless we maintain a sufficient reservoir of stock on the hills.
That seems to me to be fairly conclusive, so far as the general problem of hill farms is concerned. I submit to the House, from both the long-term and short-term points of view, that this Bill is justified on its merits.
I shall now deal with some of the points that have been raised in Debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury (Mr. Alpass) referred to the question of nationalisation and " Let us Face the Future," and went backwards and forwards and all round it. I know that my hon. Friend has very pronounced feelings on this subject. I have heard him make many speeches on the virtues of the nationalisation of the land, and I make no complaint. All I would say to my hon. Friend and to the House is this. This matter is of great urgency, and I doubt

whether we could afford to wait until the land of this country is nationalised. In any case, I think even my hon. Friend, on reflection, would be bound to agree that it would be utterly unreasonable to expect us to nationalise a particular type of land, not the best quality of land but the most uneconomic. When I point out that that particular type of land constitutes 16 million acres, I suggest, in the light of the immediate and prospective problem of hill farming, that it is an unreasonable suggestion.

Mr. Alpass: My right hon. Friend was in possession of those facts because he has been in the Ministry all this time, but why did he put those words in " Let us Face the Future "?

Captain Crookshank: He did not.

Mr. Williams: In any case, need I remind my hon. Friend once again, that on 15th November, 1945, the long term agricultural policy of this Government was announced in the House? It was stated then that powers would be taken, when legislative opportunities presorted themselves, to deal with both the bad farmer and the bad estate manager. Legislation will be produced, I hope at a not too far distant date, to deal with the policy announced on that occasion. In the meantime, it seems to me that what we are obliged to do, if we are to do our duty at all, is to make the best improvements we can between now and that time. This Bill, therefore, is based upon the principle of voluntary cooperation between landlord, tenant and the State. Where owner-occupiers arc willing to help the State is prepared to assist. I would further remind the House that this Bill is limited to five years. I think it should be given a trial. A great deal of experience can and will be obtained during that period of time. The hon. Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) asked several questions, some of which I can deal with at once. As many hon. Members, including the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson), referred to the advisory committee, perhaps I ought to say at once that the advisory committee referred to in Clause 30 will be a committee comparable with the existing advisory committee on hill sheep and hill cattle for purposes


of subsidy. It may be that that advisory committee will be added to, with one or two scientists or experts in this particular technique. That, more or less, will constitute the advisory committee for this purpose. The members will be practical agriculturists who know the problem inside out, and I am sure they will serve the purpose very well.
My hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary is in a better position than I to say what would happen in Scotland with regard to the local committees. I have it in mind, so far as England and Wales are concerned, that we shall rely largely upon the reconstituted county executive committees, which have had such a large experience in the last five years of dealing with hill sheep and cattle subsidies. The hon. Member for West Perth also referred to the amount of money available, asking how it is to be allocated to England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. No specified sub-division of the £4 million or £5 million has been agreed upon. It has been discussed, but no figures were fixed. I think we shall have to act in accordance with the experience we gain from the number of schemes that are run. The hon. Member for West Perth also said there was no guarantee that good husbandry would follow the operation of any one of these improvement schemes. I would remind the hon. Member that we have a long term of agricultural policy. So long as State funds are helping a private scheme the hon. Member may rest assured that the day will come when those committees will be keeping an eye on areas that are improved. I hope that any improvement we get will be maintained, even by insistence upon either a county committee or any other similar body 111 Scotland. The hon. Member said there was no security for the landlord or tenant, and that the tenants ought to have long leases. It seems to me that if the landlord and tenant are willing to undertake a scheme of this description with Government assistance, that in itself is the best guarantee the landlord or the tenant can have.
I was rather disappointed when I listened to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon). I had understood him to say on another occasion that we were too generous; that we ought not to make grants at all. In

fact his name is down to an Amendment to the Money Resolution to limit assistance to loans. He said he was profoundly disappointed because the Bill did not go to the roots of the problem; that there was a great opportunity, but that this Bill was a miserable failure. Yet, curiously enough, he went on to say that unless the land owners could have loans free of interest for their part of the cost he did not think very much would be done. In one case it appears we are too generous, and in the other case too parsimonious, and I really do not quite know what the right thing is. He made one statement I clearly understood: he said the most important thing for hill farmers, as well as other farmers, was price stabilisation. Having provided guaranteed minimum prices for two, three or four years ahead—something this country has never known in the whole of its history—I should have thought that that form of price stabilisation would have satisfied the most fastidious Member of this House.
The right hon. Member for Antrim (Sir H. O'Neill) raised one or two points in regard to Northern Ireland. He asked, for instance, whether the grants would be subject to Income Tax, and whether Northern Ireland would have a subcommittee. The reply to the first question is that the Inland Revenue Department will apply the usual Income Tax principles to the facts of each case to determine whether the expenditure is of a capital nature or not. On his second question, I understand that the Ministry of Agriculture for Northern Ireland have been consulted, and they do not consider that a separate sub-committee is necessary. My hon. Friend the Member for Accrington (Mr. Scott-Elliot) made what I regarded as an exceptionally sound and solid speech, based upon a technical knowledge of this industry. I could not agree with him more than when he said that we ought to aim at better sheep and more sheep, so long as we do not overstock any other area. He, with many other hon. Members, referred to the need for more and still more research. There again, I could not agree with him more. A good deal of research is going on at the moment at our various stations, and I shall be very happy to assist all I can to improve research, either on hill farming or any other section of agriculture.
The hon. and gallant Member for Richmond (Sir T. Dugdale) raised several points with regard to improvement schemes and invited sympathetic administration by the committees. I can assure my hon. Friend that that is our intention. Once the definition of a hill farm is really understood, I hope there will be sympathetic administration, and that we shall encourage rather than discourage those who wish to help themselves. So far as the committees are concerned I have already mentioned how they will be constituted, and I hope their members will be men with local knowledge, who understand the needs and the technique, and will do the job as I know my hon. Friend would desire it to be done. With regard to the circulation of a statement of the provisions and how they will work out, that is a matter that we will take into account, and if I can be helpful I will. He, with many other hon. Members, referred to the question of forestry, which I will deal with in a moment or two. The hon. and gallant Member for Richmond and certain others also referred to electricity under the First Schedule. We recognise that the lack of modern facilities on hill farms has been one of the most potent causes of the depopulation of the hills of this country. Electricity is an amenity which will be the crucial point in determining for or against a rehabilitation scheme; so long as we can provide ourselves with proper safeguards against the risk of disproportionate expenditure on a supply from the mains, I shall be very glad to look into the subject between now and the Committee stage.
The hon. and gallant Member for Richmond and other hon. Members also referred to small hill farm units. Clause 1 (2) (a) states that before approving any scheme the Minister must be satisfied that the scheme covers an area of land suitable for rehabilitation. Where any scheme fails to do this the Minister may refuse to approve the scheme, or may have it suitably modified. This provision will enable the Minister to exercise some pressure to ensure that the layout of farms will be suitably adjusted. I think it would be more reasonable to apply than any arbitrary line.
With regard to marginal hill farms, which were referred to by many hon. Members on both sides of the House, the term " hill farm "Is defined in Clause 1 (3) as

 mountain, hill and heath land which is suitable for use for the maintenance of sheep of a hardy kind but not of sheep of other kinds.
In all hill and upland districts, as hon. Members will know, there are what we term " marginal lands " lying at lower altitudes than ordinary hill sheep farms, poorly equipped and providing a poor living for the occupiers. A line of demarcation had to be drawn somewhere, not too rigid and capable of being interpreted with a degree of certainty and uniformity. Clause 1 (3) does this, and enables executives to understand just how the present scheme operates and just what will be necessary in future. I rather fear that any extension would be exceedingly difficult as most hill farms merge gradually, sometimes imperceptibly, into the better types of lowland farms; and the problem of marginal land farms is really one for long term policy, and not one for this rather temporary Measure. The definition of hill farming could be, perhaps, interpreted as follows, and I think this should help the House: while the definition of hill farming land refers to land suitable for hardy sheep, but not for other kinds of sheep, the Bill allows the Minister to approve schemes for the benefit of other land suitable for use therewith for hill farming purposes. That is under Clause 1 (1). The hill farming purposes include other activities carried on in connection with the keeping of hill sheep. The definition thus allows the Minister to approve all sorts of schemes, other than those benefiting high, mountain land. That I hope will help hon. Members who have marginal lands in mind.

Mr. Turton: The point we are making is that as the Bill is drafted now one farm will qualify and the next farm, similar in character, will be excluded. So will the Minister give an undertaking now to consider an Amendment of this definition and, perhaps, use the words already operating in the 1942 regulation dealing with marginal land in hill and upland districts?

Mr. Williams: I am afraid that I would not be able to give the hon. Member a faithful promise that I am prepared to amend the Bill in the direction he indicates. We have to draw the line somewhere, or it is clear that the £5 million would not go very far and, in all


probability, would be spent in the wrong direction.
Just one word with regard to paragraph 3 of the First Schedule. Tied cottages have been mentioned in the Debate. I think it is quite right. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Health provides a subsidy of £15 for 40 years for privately built houses; but he insists upon the house being let and a tenancy created. That, I think, is not an unreasonable suggestion. Where the State is putting money into the erection of a new house, I think it is not unreasonable that a tenancy should be created.
All these fears about tied cottages and cottages on hill farms being of little use to the farmer do not appeal to me. I cannot imagine a person occupying a house right away up in the hill lands if he no longer works for that particular farmer, and of necessity he would have to leave that house in a very short space of time. There is another point in connection with tied houses of that description. I think that the day is long past when there is any necessity to continue tied cottages where other means can be employed. I know that there are 137 types of tied cottages—someone said to me the other day that the Palace across the way is almost a tied cottage. In this particular case I think it is right that where State funds are provided for reconditioning or building new houses a tenancy ought to be created, and an Amendment will be moved in Committee to deal with that.

Colonel Gomme-Ouncan: Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that you will not get men to work in these places unless they have tied cottages?

Mr. Williams: The hon. and gallant Member may take that view. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is true."] I am not convinced. If the agricultural workers of this country are to receive a wage comparable with that obtaining in other industries, they will be ready and willing to pay rents for their houses, and they will enjoy the freedom which that gives. While the wages of agricultural workers were between 34s. and 35s, a week, they obviously preferred tied cottages at 3s. per week than untied cottages at 10s. per week. If we are always going to live

in the past, we shall always believe that tied cottages are necessary everywhere; but I do not take that point of view.
The question of reconciling the interests of forestry and agriculture has been raised by several hon. Members. The Forestry Act, 1945, recognises the need for reconciling these dual interests, and the House firmly and squarely planted responsibility on the Minister of Agriculture to reconcile the interests of afforestation and agriculture. Following a definite promise made to the House by my right hon. Friend the Member for Southport, we are already cooperating in a survey in Wales, and in the light of experience gained there we shall extend these surveys to other areas. I see no reason for a conflict in the future between these very important industries. So far we have devised ways and means of amicable cooperation, and there has been no conflict between afforestry and agricultural interests during these past nine months, and I see no reason why it should occur in future.
My hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Mr. Steele) with many other hon. Members complained against the Bill because the schemes were voluntary. They thought that the Government ought to have applied compulsion, and to my astonishment I found that the hon. Member for West Perth regretted that we were not applying compulsion because the Scottish Committee had recommended it. It is a new theory for the hon. Member, but I would suggest to him that on this occasion it is far better to apply the scheme voluntarily before starting to apply compulsion. If, as he said, the £5 million from the State is not very much, he seems to anticipate a rush of applications before application of compulsion He cannot have it both ways. The hon. Member for Lanark raised the question of security of tenure. The fact that the landlord and tenant have agreed to a scheme seems to be implicit in the contract that there will be security of tenure.
I think that I have covered most of the points raised during the course of the Debate. All I would say to hon. Members in all parts of the House, is that we are anxious that this Bill should be a real help to hill farming in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We shall be as sympathetic as is necessary, on the Committee Stage, without destroying the basis on which the Bill was created. We


are anxious that our hills shall be more fully populated, that the conditions of the lowlands shall be better in the future than they have been in the past and that we shall, in a reasonable time, be able to restore our livestock and provide more fresh meat for the people of this country.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

HILL FARMING [MONEY]

Considered in Committee under Stand-Order No. 69.

[Mr. HUBERT BEAUMONT in the Chair]

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision for promoting the rehabilitation of hill farming land; for the payment of subsidies in respect of hill sheep and hill cattle; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid (in this Resolution referred to as 'the Act'), it is expedient to authorize—
(1) the mailing out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

(a) grants not exceeding one-half of the cost of work done in accordance with schemes submitted to the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries or the Secretary of State within five years from the commencement of the Act providing for the making of improvements for the benefit of hill farming land or other land suitable for use therewith for hill farming purposes, so however that the aggregate of the amounts of such grants shall not exceed four million pounds or such greater amount not exceeding five million pounds as may be provided for by order made by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary of State within five years from the commencement of the Act and approved by a Resolution of this House;
(b) payment of an amount equal to the cost of work done in accordance with any such scheme in so far as it is rendered abortive by the revocation or variation of the scheme in the public interest;
(c) payments, in accordance with schemes made by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary of State respectively, in respect of sheep comprised on any of the days relevant for the purposes of the schemes in flocks kept on hill land (which days shall be, in the case of a scheme having effect as respects England and Wales or Scotland, such day of December in the year nineteen hundred and forty-six and in the four next succeeding years as may be specified in the scheme in relation to each of those years, and, in the case of a scheme having effect as respects Northern Ireland, such day of January in the year nineteen hundred and

forty-seven and in the four next succeeding years as may be so specified);
(d) payments, in accordance with schemes so made, in respect of the year nineteen hundred and forty-seven and each of the four next succeeding years, in respect of cattle depastured on hill land;


(2) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

(a) cost incurred by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries in doing work required for making improvements for the benefit of hill farming land that is subject to rights of common of pasture;
(b) expenses incurred by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries or the Secretary of State in defraying expenses of any advisory committee or sub-committee appointed under the Act or of any local committee constituted thereunder; and
(c) any administrative expenses incurred for the purposes of the Act by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary of State or either of them; and
(3) the payment into the Exchequer of any sum recovered under any provision of the Act from any person by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary of State or either of them or retained by them out of the proceeds of any sale of sheep or cattle forfeited under an Order made under any provision of the Act relating to sheep or cattle imported or brought into the United Kingdom."—[Kings Recommendation signified.]—[My. Thomas Williams.]

The following Amendment stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. ALPASS:

In line 7, leave out "grants," and insert "loans."

10.3 p.m.

Mr. Alpass: With regard to the Amendment in my name, I am advised that the question of substituting the word " loans " for " grants " with regard to certain items in the Schedule could be more effectively dealt with in Committee. [Laughter.] I do not see any cause for laughter. I thought that this was regarded as a serious Bill. With the assurance that we shall be able to discuss this point fully in Committee, my hon. Friends and I do not desire to press the Amendent.

Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: rose—

Mr. McKie: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Chairman. May I ask what is the Question before the Committee?

The Deputy-Chairman: If the hon. Gentleman had listened, I thought I had made that clear.

Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: I want to raise one or two questions. The first question is one that has been asked on the Second Reading but to which no effective answer has been given. We are asked to vote some £4 million to be spent during the next five years for the rehabilitation of hill farming land, and that sum may be increased by a further £1 million if this House desires it and should the appropriate Ministry sanction it. How is this sum to be apportioned between England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales? The Minister in his reply made to me the rather astonishing statement that this matter had been debated, but that no decision had been arrived at. It seems to me to be a most reprehensible thing in a Bill of this nature, with four parts of the United Kingdom anxiously competing for the benefits from this sum, that no decision should have been arrived at as to how that sum should be apportioned between the countries concerned. We have heard this afternoon that 70 per cent, of the land of Scotland is in rough grazing. Therefore, 70 per cent, of the land of Scotland will be competing for part of this £4 million, and I say it is a very serious thing for Scotland that this decision has not been made, because I have no faith in the Secretary of State for Scotland being able to go before the Chancellor of the Exchequer and make claims for sufficient money for Scotland.

Mr. George Thomas: What about Wales? We have no Minister at all.

Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: I feel that the hon. Gentleman would agree with me that it is most unsatisfactory that this decision was not arrived at before the Bill was brought before the House. The second point I want to ask is, what is to be the ceiling under each scheme? Is there to be a ceiling under each scheme? A great many people in Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be competing for grants. Is any owner to be able to claim more than a certain amount? Are there to be so many applications to be received from a certain region? We have not been told anything about this, and I think the Committee is entitled to have an answer to these questions before it decides to give the

Minister this large sum of money. There is no doubt about these grants being needed. I could talk a great deal about the history of the hill farm land in Scotland. Suffice it to say that these lands have been impoverished and have been deteriorating under the extractive farming of the more prosperous years, the years before the importation of the Marino wool, the importation of mutton and the demand for the smaller joints.

The Deputy - Chairman: The hon. Gentleman is now delivering a speech he might have desired to deliver earlier in the evening on the Second Reading. May I ask him to keep closely to the Money Resolution?

Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: You are absolutely right and I would not for a moment dispute that, but I was most anxious that my constituents would not be disappointed. I could not get past you, Mr. Beaumont, but I thought there was a little that I might slip in on this Money Resolution. The next thing I want to say is that we are told in the Explanatory Memorandum to this Bill that it is designed to facilitate the rehabilitation of hill farming land throughout the United Kingdom. In order to do that, these grants of 50 per cent, are made, but the Bill is based on the recommendations of the Balfour Committee, as far as Scotland is concerned, and on the recommendations of the De La Warr Committee, as far as England and Wales are concerned. The Balfour Committee came to the conclusion that a 50 per cent, grant—

The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Gentleman is again straying from hill farming. He must keep to the Money Resolution.

Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: With great respect, Mr. Beaumont, I have tried to confine myself merely to the question of the 50 per cent, grant. My point is that the 50 per cent, grant is not adequate to the purpose for which it is required. I want to see a bigger grant, and I support the argument for a larger grant by reference to one passage in the Report of the Balfour Committee. The Committee said:
The most fundamental consideration is that the expenditure which is needed to restore the industry to economic independence within


the framework of a reasonable agricultural policy involves an element of arrears of maintenance and improvement which is too onerous for a generation of farmers and landlords which has no experience of large profits. In our view, a contribution by the State of less than 60 per cent, of the cost would not secure the necessary measure of support from the industry.
I rest myself on that, and I say that I am deeply disappointed that a larger grant is not being given for this purpose.

10.12 p.m.

Mr. Turton: There are only four questions that I wish to ask the Minister First, I understand that this grant works out at is an acre a year on the hill farming land. I should be obliged if the Minister would tell us whether the proportion will be based on the acreage or on the ewe population of the two countries, or, if one takes the minor countries of Wales and Northern Ireland, the four countries. In England, we have many more hill ewes than there are in Scotland, the numbers being 3,500,000 in England and 2,750,000 in Scotland, although it is true that in barren acres Scotland has a very considerable advantage. Secondly, as the Minister is aware, there is in operation now a marginal grant scheme under which a 40 per cent, grant is given for similar purposes to those of this Bill. It was begun in 1942, and is being carried on in hill land now. Does the Minister intend to continue that scheme so that it will be in operation at the same time as this Bill or, if it is not to be continued, will it be merged in some way with the Money Resolution we are now discussing? This is of great importance, since in my area there are a number of schemes under the marginal grants scheme and land is being reseeded. The third point arises from paragraph (2, a) of the Money Resolution, which reads:
 Cost incurred by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries in doing work required for making improvements for the benefit of hill farming land that is subject to rights of common of pasture.
I do not know whether the Minister appreciates that, in regard to common lands, we are in a difficulty. If we are to improve common land, we have to see that it is properly fenced. While in the case of ordinary land the obligation of fencing is on the man who owns the stock, when one comes to common land

the obligation is not on the man who own the stock on the common land, but on the adjoining occupier. Will the Minister tell us whether paragraph (2, a) of the Money Resolution covers grants for the improvement of the boundary fences that are tin obligation of adjoining occupiers and no of the man who owns the common stock; That is a point which goes to the root 0 the Bill. To the best of my knowledge there are some 400 square miles of the North Riding where there are no sheep a the moment because we cannot get the adjoining occupiers and owners to fence the inter-walls. Unless the Minister car give an assurance about this matter, it is a pity we ever gave the Bill a Second Reading. Fourthly, I wish to ask the Minister whether he is paying any attention in the Financial Resolution to the recommendation of the De La Warr Committee, which reads as follows:
The increasing volume of motor traffic on unfenced hill roads has led to a rising death rate among sheep and lambs. In addition where roads are crossed by boundary fences, gates are continually being left open "—

The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Member is placing me in a dilemma. I cannot find out how he relates the high death rate of sheep and lambs to the Money Resolution.

Mr. Turton: I assure you, with great respect, Mr. Beaumont, that it is germane. In paragraph (1, a), the Minister asks for power to make a grant not exceeding one-half of the cost of work done in accordance with schemes submitted to the Minister of Agriculture. I am trying to elicit whether the Minister, in those schemes, will include the recommendation, in the Report on which this Bill was founded, dealing with the fencing of roads. There is considerable point in it, because we are dealing usually with adjoining owners and occupiers, but in this Report it is recommended that the local authorities should be included. Therefore, I suggest I am entitled to make reference to that important matter.

The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Member can find an answer in the first Schedule to the majority of the. questions he is putting. He must deal now with the Money Resolution.

Mr. Turton: That is the point, Mr. Beaumont. It would be out of Order for me to ask, on' the first Schedule, whether


a local authority could fence the road since it is not included under that Schedule. Surely, I am in Order in asking the Minister what is to be the relationship in finance between the Exchequer and the local authorities in this matter? After all, the De la Warr Committee attached great importance to it. It is important because every year the farms in my constituency lose 20 sheep each which are killed by motorists going too fast along the unfenced roads. Will the Minister say therefore whether he is going to have these roads fenced, whether he will pay a grant towards them under this Financial Resolution, and what steps he is taking to get the local authorities to make a new contribution since it is not the fault of the farmers that motorists go too fast along unfenced roads?
I hope the Minister will answer my four questions. With regard to this Financial Resolution, as I have said, unless we can get some better arrangement it is going to work out very unequally in England. I do not think there is the same inequality in Scotland because all land in Scotland counts as hill fanning land whether at sea level or several hundred feet above. I believe that Scotland is perfectly satisfied with this Bill, but when we come to consider England it is going to work disproportionately rather like the case in the Bible of the two women grinding at the mill; one of whom was taken and the other left.

The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Gentleman has gone extremely wide. The definitions he seeks he will find in the Bill and not in the Financial Resolution.

Sir John Barlow: rose—

The Deputy-Chairman: Mr. Williams.

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Thomas Williams): If I may reply briefly to the three or four questions—[Interruption.]

The Deputy-Chairman: I am not closing the Debate by calling upon the Minister.

Captain Crookshank: On a point of Order, Mr. Beaumont. I understood that the hon. Member for Thornbury (Mr. Alpass) did not move his Amendment but I have been looking

forward to learning the difference between " grant " and " loan "In this case.

Mr. Alpass: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman should have been here when I made my speech.

Captain Crookshank: I presumed that the hon. Member had another speech prepared, since under the rule about repetition he could not have made the same one. I should have been interested to hear his argument in this case. He did not move his Amendment, I understood him to say, on the ground that he had been advised that the matter could be raised on the Committee stage. I should like to ask you, Mr. Beaumont, whether that is so because the Money Resolution deals entirely with grants, as indeed does the Title of the Bill. Would it therefore be competent for the Committee to discuss loans instead of grants and, if they so wished, to substitute " loans " for " grants " for the purpose of the Bill?

The Deputy-Chairman: The right hon. and gallant Member is asking a question to which he knows full well I cannot give an answer. This Bill will go to a Standing Committee and I cannot predict what will take place there.

Captain Crookshank: How is it that the hon. Member has been advised that the question can be raised elsewhere?

The Deputy-Chairman: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman should not suggest that the Chairman should know either who gave the hon. Member advice, or the value of that advice.

Sir J. Barlow: There are two or three questions which I should like to put to the Minister. It seems to me that this is a substantial grant to cover 21 different items set out in the First Schedule to the Bill. There is a great variety of items in that Schedule but there has been nothing from the Government to show how the money would be distributed between the different items. I have seen no estimates made of work to be done whatever, which seems to me, as a businessman, a rather important error. We know that the cost of building in the hill land is infinitely different—

The Deputy-Chairman: I am sorry to have to stop the hon. Gentleman. What he is discussing now would be relevant in Committee but not on the Financial Resolution.

Sir J. Barlow: I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Beaumont. I should like to ask the Minister to give us some more information as to how this large sum of £4 million is to be spent in a general way and not in any particular way. We have been told that it is to cover a period of some four years and about 15,000,000 acres. It would seem to me that the amount involved is all too small for us to meet the situation and to put hill farm ing in any way on its feet. It is to deal with fencing, drainage—

The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Member cannot go into the subject of drainage. We are dealing with the Financial Resolution. The hon. Member is dealing with matters which will have to be brought up in Committee.

Sir J. Barlow: I wish to make my remarks very brief indeed. I hope that the Minister will, in all sincerity, try to show in some small way how this very small sum is to be applied to such an enormous amount of work.

Mr. T. Williams: Perhaps I might reply briefly to the questions which have been put. The hon. Member for Eddisbury (Sir J. Barlow) has just asked me to tell the House how this money can be used to rehabilitate 16,000,000 acres of land. He is asking for the impossible. We never claimed that the Bill would do it. We only said that it would make a start. I hope that the answer will satisfy the hon. Gentleman. I would also ask about the subdivision of the money. I said definitely that there would be no subdivision. The hon. Member knows that there is just about as much hill land in Scotland as there is in England and Wales. [An HON. MEMBER: " No."] I said just about as much. It does not matter very much what the subdivision of area is. It will be a question of the number of schemes produced and submitted. If it is felt over a period of time that the money is running out more quickly than was expected, one can always come back to Parliament to ask for the money to be extended, if the scheme is found worth while. I see no point in tying the Minister to any absolute subdivision of funds that may be made available by Parliament.
The answer to the question whether there is any ceiling is " No."There is no ceiling. The hon. Member for Thirsk and

Malton (Mr. Turton) asked about fences on common lands. I commend to his attention Clause 11, where he will find there is ample power to deal with fences on common land. He asked about the marginal land scheme produced in 1942, and whether it was to be continued. Yes, it is being continued for the present, but it will have to be reconsidered later. The hon. Member asked a further question, to which I know he did not expect an answer, whether we could do something to prevent motorists driving so fast that they killed his sheep in Thirsk and Malton. I cannot tell him what I am going to do with motorists.

Mr. McKie: I have no desire to detain the Committee unduly. I am very much surprised and disappointed at the speech of the Minister. I have been in the House as long as—

The Deputy-Chairman: This is not the occasion for the hon. Gentleman to make remarks of that character, which have nothing to do with the Financial Resolution.

Mr. McKie: With great respect we are not disoussing the Financial Resolution.

The Deputy-Chairman: We are discussing the Financial Resolution, and nothing else.

10.30 p.m.

Mr. McKie: Therefore, Mr. Beaumont, may I ask you whether I am not allowed to say that I am disappointed with what a Minister has said? I was disappointed at the somewhat curt way in which the Minister of Agriculture replied to the points raised in this Debate on the Financial Resolution, particularly to the points raised by the hon. Member for West Aberdeen (Mr. Thornton Kemsley).

The Deputy-Chairman: I think the hon. Member should understand that the Minister, in making his reply, pointed out definitely that these were matters for the Committee stage and not for this Debate.

Mr. McKie: With great respect, surely so long as the Committee is considering a Financial Resolution, hon. Members are entitled to express their views and disagreement unless this is to be turned into a Fascist assembly [Interruption.]

The Deputy-Chairman: I think that remark was entirely undesirable, and I should hope that the hon. Member will withdraw it.

Mr. McKie: I certainly withdraw anything which you, Mr. Beaumont, occupying the great position you do, consider undesirable, but I would ask if this Debate is to be entirely stifled.

The Deputy-Chairman: The Financial Resolution is being considered now, and hon. Members are not allowed to go off at a tangent. We are now discussing the Financial Resolution, and no other aspects of the Bill should be discussed.

Mr. McKie: I was not attempting to do anything of the kind. I was merely asking if we could not have a little further elucidation. We are in Committee of the Whole House and it is perfectly in Order for a Minister or other Member on the Treasury Bench, who may be asked by the Minister to reply, to make a further reply to any point which I or any other Member may raise. I am dissatisfied, and I think we ought to have some further explanation of why the Minister has not seen fit to give a more detailed and adequate reply to the very germane points raised on how the £4 million plus £1 million is to be allocated; in other words, how is Scotland going to fare? It has been said on the Second Reading of the Bill and in this Debate on the Financial Resolution that the interests of Scottish hill farming are very much greater proportionately—I do not say it in any offensive sense—than those of hill farming in England and Wales or Northern Ireland. I think we are en titled—I say this in all seriousness— to a further reply and to be told how this sum of money is to be allocated. May I, with your permission, Mr. Beaumont, give the Committee my reason for saying that? It has been said already but I have a perfect right to say it again, with your permission. This sum of money for the whole country, England, Wales and Ulster, commonly known as Northern Ireland, is £5 million instead of the £15 million which was recommended in the Balfour of Burleigh Report to be spent on Scotland alone. I hope therefore that you, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, will realise the very serious apprehensions which I and all of my hon. Friends on this side of the House, whether they are representing Scotland or any English or Welsh or Northern Ireland Divisions, entertain as to the inadequacy of this sum of money so far as—

The Deputy-Chairman: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will realise also that he is in great danger of committing the sin of repetition.

Mr. McKie: I was merely asking for a more adequate reason than we have yet been given. The Minister has given no reason at all. He has sought to allay our fears and to calm our doubts with soothing and comfortable words. I want to have a more reassuring assurance than he has seen fit to give as to why in this Financial Resolution the sum of £5 Million—

The Deputy Chairman: I shall have to ask the hon. Member to resume his seat if he continually repeats himself. I think we are all conscious of what the hon. Member desires to know and is attempting to say.

Mr. McKie: With great respect, Mr. Beaumont, I hope we shall have a further reply. Part of this Financial Resolution authorises payment out of moneys provided by Parliament
 of an amount equal to the cost of work done in accordance with any such scheme in so far as it is rendered abortive by the revocation or variation of the scheme in the public interest.
I would like to have an explanation of that. I have read this carefully and it seems to me to be a very involved paragraph. I think the Committee is entitled to an explanation. So far as I am aware no hon. Member has yet raised this point on this Financial Resolution. I wonder if there is any connection between this paragraph and the hesitation of the hon. Gentleman the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland this afternoon to inform the House of the Government's intentions. The hon. Gentleman made some rather unfortunate—from his point of view—references to possible nationalisation of the land of Great Britain. He fell among thieves, or into a lions' den and found himself between two fires.

The Deputy-Chairman: I would point out to the hon. Member that whether the Joint Under-Secretary for Scotland was between two fires, or falling into the lions' den or falling among thieves, none of these matters is within the purview of the Financial Resolution.

Mr. McKie: I must apologise for using an unfortunate illustration.

The Deputy-Chairman: May I help the hon. Member by asking him to look at the words of Clause 5 of the Bill? He will then see the answer to his question.

Mr. McKie: With great respect, Mr. Beaumont, this does not arise on the Bill. I think I am only entitled to discuss this on the Financial Resolution.

The Deputy-Chairman: The difficulty is this. If I permit the hon. Member to ask the question I shall not be able to permit the Minister of Agriculture to answer it.

Mr. McKie: With respect am I not entitled to ask for an explanation of this paragraph? I ask in all seriousness, Is there anything here which in any way relates to the kind of suggestion which the Joint Under-Secretary threw out this afternoon? In other words, what is the definition of the public interest to be? I think we have a perfect right to know, and in that I am reinforced by the hilarity of hon. Members on the other side of the Committee.

The Deputy-Chairman: The definition of the public interest is a matter to be debated in Committee.

Mr. McKie: We are in Committee.

The Deputy-Chairman: I now appreciate why the hon. Member has not kept to Order. We are in Committee dealing with the Financial Resolution, and not in Committee dealing with the Bill.

Mr. McKie: With respect, Mr. Beaumont, we are in Committee of the Whole House dealing with the Financial Resolution. Surely an hon. Member is entitled, so long as this is the House of Commons, to ask for an explanation of anything in the Financial Resolution. No one else has raised this point, and I think we are entitled to an explanation. The words are cloudy and misleading. Certain suggestions were made by the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland this afternoon. I ask him now—or some one on his behalf—to have the courtesy to tell the Committee what is envisaged by this paragraph.

Mr. T. Williams: I should hate to be discourteous to the hon. Member, and I will answer his points. There has been no figure fixed for the sub-division of the

£4,000,000 to £5,000,000. Paragraph 1 (b) of the Money Resolution provides for payment
of an amount equal to the cost of work done in accordance with any such scheme in so far as it is rendered abortive by the revocation or variation of the scheme in the public interest.
If a scheme has been approved and work commenced and some money has been expended, and it is then in the public interest that the scheme be varied, a sum will be paid.

Mr. McKie: What is meant by "In the public interest "?

Mr. T. Williams: A thousand and one things may be in the public interest, but the State would be able to return to the owner of that land any money expended before the area became a matter of public interest.

Colonel Gomme-Duncan: May I ask how the right hon. Gentleman thinks Scottish interests will be looked after? There is £4,000,000 to £5,000,000 to be subdivided between the four countries. I do not see that Scotland will get much out of that. I cannot see it being done. May I have an answer?

Hon. Members: No.

10.45 p.m.

Major Niall Macpherson: I would like to ask if there is any limit on the time during which the money may be expended under paragraph 1 (a). The provision of money is to be given in respect of schemes submitted within five years, but I would like to know the amount of time thereafter during which it may be spent. There is no limit. One can understand that it would be difficult at present to carry out any new schemes because of shortage of labour, and one cannot foretell what the position will be at the end of five years. I would like the Minister to give the Committee an answer to that. Now, on the subject of paragraph 1 (b), provision is mace for the revocation of schemes when the work has been badly done by the person who has carried it out. But, in the Bill, also, there is provision for the Minister to carry out the work. It is quite conceivable that the Minister may not carry out the work well—it is possible that he would not. What is the position then? I think that there should be some reciprocity in this matter. If the tenant or the landlord does


the work badly, and if, in that case the grant is revoked and he has to pay back that sum, surely in the same way if the scheme carried out by the Minister is unsuccessful—as it might well be—the Minister should be prepared to pay back. He should be prepared to pay back to the person interested, be he landlord or tenant, or both, the share that has been contributed by that person to the scheme.
The next point I have to make is in respect of cattle pastured on hill land. While it is very desirable to get as much cattle on the hills as possible and while summer grazing is to be encouraged, the main object, if fertility is to be improved, is to get hill cattle on to the hills—Galloways and Highland crosses and the like. For that reason I feel that a longer term policy is required, and not merely subsidies to cover summer grazing only. I hope the Minister will be able to say what is in his mind as to the regulations to be made governing the subsidies for hill cattle.

Resolution to be reported Tomorrow.

MINISTERIAL SALARIES [MONEY]

Resolution reported:
That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision as to the salaries of certain Ministers of the Crown and other persons, and as to the payment of salaries or allowances as Members of Parliament to persons in receipt of salaries or pensions under the Ministers of the Crown Act, 1937 (hereinafter referred to as the " Act of 1937 "), it is expedient to authorise, as from the first day of April, nineteen hundred and forty-six:—
A. The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament—

(i) of any increase in the sums payable under the Act of 1937 out of moneys so provided which is attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session increasing the maximum amount of the annual salary of the Postmaster-General to five thousand pounds, of the Minister of Pensions to three thousand pounds, and of the Assistant Postmaster-General to fifteen hundred pounds;
(ii) of a salary to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in respect of his office of any amount by which his salary in respect thereof paid otherwise than out of moneys so provided is less than three thousand pounds a year;
(iii) of any increase not exceeding two hundred pounds in the annual salary of one of the Junior Lords of the Treasury which is attributable to the provisions of

the said Act of the present Session relating to the salaries of the Treasurer, the Comptroller, and the Vice-Chamberlain of His Majesty's Household and the said Junior Lords of the Treasury;
(iv) of salaries to the Captain of the Honorable Corps of Gentlemen at Arms and the Captain of the King's Bodyguard of the Yeoman of the Guard of an amount not exceeding twelve hundred pounds a year, and to such number of Lords in Waiting not exceeding three as the Treasury may determine of an amount not exceeding one thousand pounds a year;
(v) of any increase in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament which is attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session enabling a Member of the House of Commons to receive payments by way of salary or allowance in respect of his membership not exceeding five hundred pounds a year notwithstanding the receipt of a salary or pension under the Act of 1937.

B. The payment out of the Consolidated Fund of any increase in the sums payable out of that Fund which is attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session enabling a pension to be paid under the Act of 1937 notwithstanding the receipt of a salary or allowance in respect of membership of the House of Commons, so long as the salary or allowance does not exceed five hundred pounds a year.

MINISTERIAL SALARIES BILL

Considered in Committee.

[Major MILNER in the Chair]

CLAUSE I.—(Increase in salaries of certain Ministers.)

10.50 p.m.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter (Kingston-upon-Thames): I beg to move, in page 1, line 9, to leave out paragraph (b).
The Amendment which stands in my name and that of a number of other hon. Members was really inspired by no less a person than the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I will, in support of that assertion, refresh the memory of the Committee on the question. On the Second Reading of the Bill the right hon. Gentleman, with characteristic helpfulness, was good enough to say this in reply to certain observations which I had ventured to offer on the Second Reading:
Perhaps it would be convenient if at this stage I told the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames that the questions he raised on the salaries of the Postmaster-General and the Minister of Pensions are quite appropriate Committee points. I will not say more now, except to add that when the Committee stage


is reached, I shall be very happy to reply to the hon. Member's arguments, if he will put down an Amendment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th May, 1946, Vol. 423, c. 1314.]
Being always willing to assist the Government in any matter, I followed the invitation to put down this Amendment which, as the Committee will appreciate, has the effect of excising from the benefits of this Measure the Minister of Pensions, and would respectfully invite attention to the fact that the following Amendment on the Order Paper deals with the Parliamentary Secretary to the same Department. I would, if I have your permission, Major Milner, desire, in the interests of saving time, to discuss both Amendments together inasmuch as the points raised on them are precisely the same. The purpose of this Amendment and the subsequent Amendment, is to remove from this Bill the provision to increase the salaries of the Minister and of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions. The reason for doing this is quite simple. It is not sought to suggest that these appointments are not of first class importance, but what it is desired to do is to urge that this moment is, to use the Prime Minister's own expression, extremely inappropriate for the raising of these salaries. It would verge upon platitude to remind the Committee that there is the gravest discontent with the working of this Department, and I do not believe that hon. Members opposite, if they search not only their consciences, but their postbags, will find any reason to disagree with that. I, therefore, suggest to the Committee that the very moment at which there is the deepest and, I would suggest, the most justifiable discontent with the working—

The Chairman: I am sorry, but the hon. Member is not entitled to discuss the administration of the Ministry of Pensions on this Amendment. The only question is whether the Minister shall have the increase or not.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I fully appreciate that, and, if I have failed to put my point with sufficient clarity, I must ask for your forgiveness. The point which I was venturing to put to the Committee was that at the very moment when there is immense discontent with the working of this Department—

The Chairman: That is precisely the point with which the hon. Gentleman is

not entitled to deal on this Amendment. What he is suggesting is that there is discontent with the administration of the Minister of Pensions. This particular provision in the Bill refers not only to this Minister but to any Minister of Pensions, and has no relation to the present administration of the Department, which is a matter to be discussed in Committee of Supply and not in Committee on this Bill.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I entirely and respectfully agree with your Ruling, Major Milner, but if you would permit me to put to you the basis of my argument, I think you would come to the conclusion that it does come within the terms of this Amendment. The point that I am seeking to make is that there is immense discontent with the working of this Department and that, therefore, this is an inappropriate moment for raising the salary of the Minister. My argument is addressed solely to the point as to whether this is the right moment to grant this substantial increase in the pay of the Minister. Surely, I am entitled, in arguing that, to argue that this is the inappropriate moment, because of the grave public disquiet at the working of the Department.

The Chairman: No, I do not think so. The hon. Member is quite clearly endeavouring to discuss the administration of the Department, about which he says there is discontent. That is not in Order on the hon. Gentleman's Amendment.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I naturally bow to your Ruling, Major Milner, but may I put my point to you, perhaps, in another way?

Mr. John Paton: On a point of Order. May I ask if the statements which are being made by the hon. Gentleman ought to be permitted, in view of your Ruling, Major Milner, which would forbid any Member on this side of the Committee from refuting the charges he is making against a Department of the Government?

The Chairman: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I am not in a position to call an hon. Member to Order until he has said something which necessitates that action. But, having called him "o Order, he should not pursue the point, either directly or indirectly.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Perhaps I may say this. There are, as I see it, two possible lines of argument against increasing the salary of the head of a particular Department. One would be that the importance of that Department was so small that no increase in salary was warranted. That would be permanent. It is also possible to argue that although that is an important Department, whose head is fully entitled, in principle, to an increase in salary, yet this is not the appropriate moment in which to do it. If that argument is permissible—as, in my respectful submission it is—it is, surely, permissible to submit arguments in support of the view that this is the inappropriate moment for an increase. I apologise for my own failure to put the point effectively. The argument I am attempting to submit to the Committee is precisely that.

The Chairman: The hon. Member is not, in my view, entitled to argue, as I understand he is doing, that this is not the appropriate moment to increase the salary because of the present administration, good or bad, of that Department. If I am right in that conjecture, then the hon. Member is seeking to discuss the administration of the Department, and in doing that he is out of Order. In my view, his first line of argument is the only one on which he might properly speak against this proposal.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am very grateful to you for your assistance, Major Milner. May I put to you the point I was attempting to put? I understood that you were of the view that it was in Order to argue that this was an inappropriate moment to raise the salary. That being so, while I fully appreciate I may not argue that the Department is incompetently administered, I submit that I am permitted to argue that there is a public opinion to that effect, and that that public opinion—

The Chairman: The hon. Member has repeated the same argument two or three times, and I cannot permit him to repeat it again. If the hon. Member still desires to move the Amendment I must ask him to deal with it on some other ground than the one on which he is endeavouring to argue at present. Otherwise I must ask him to resume his seat.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: With great respect, I do not think I have had an oppor-

tunity of putting the point I desired to put to you, Major Milner. I am speaking with due submission to your Ruling that I may not discuss the administration of the Department. I submit I am entitled to say that owing to the—

The Chairman: rose—

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Perhaps you will allow me to finish the sentence, Major Milner. I believe that owing to the public feeling that exists on this matter, public opinion would be adversely affected by an increase at this time. I respectfully submit that that is a proper argument on this Bill, and on this Amendment. I must apologise if I have failed to submit the point with proper clarity, but that was the point I was seeking to put. There are, as we know—and this is no party point; hon. Members opposite have had precisely the same experience as hon. Members on this side of the Committee—hundreds of thousands of ex-Servicemen who have strong feelings on this subject—

Mr. Hubbard: On a point of Order. Is not the hon. Member again discussing the administration of the Department?

The Chairman: I have already ruled the hon. Member out of Order in discussing that point.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I fully appreciate that I am not entitled to say whether that feeling is justified or not. My submission on this point—and it is the only one that is necessary—is that it exists. That being so, those people who have the feeling, rightly or wrongly, that they have been unfairly treated by this Department—

The Chairman: The hon. Member is again out of Order. He is now putting forward the suggestion that the administration of this Department results in unfair treatment. That is clearly a matter of administration, and not a matter which can be argued on this Amendment. I must ask the hon. Member not to persist further, either directly or indirectly, on that line of argument.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Surely, I am entitled to argue that that feeling exists.

11.0 p.m.

The Chairman: The hon. Gentleman has on several occasions repeated that


expression. He not only indulges in repetition, but he goes further, and gives reasons why, he says, the feeling exists, saying it is because of alleged unfair treatment. That is, as I have said, a question of administration, and the whole of that argument is out of Order. I must request him not to repeat the argument, directly or indirectly, or I must ask him to resume his seat.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I appreciate that I am not entitled to say whether those feelings are justified or not. That is subject to your Ruling, Major Milner, to which, of course, I bow. But my only argument on this Amendment is that to increase the remuneration of the responsible political head of this Department at this particular moment would—I am convinced that I have hon. Members opposite with me—give rise to strong feeling. [HON. MEMBERS: " No."] I will leave it to hon. Members and their constituents. I know what my own constituents feel about the matter, and I am certain that if hon. Members opposite will search their postbags they will find some confirmation of that view. I shall be happy if hon. Members opposite find it easy to deal with their constituents on the matter. The point I submit in moving the Amendment is that this is an inappropriate moment for raising the salary of the political head of this Department.

Colonel Gomme-Duncan: I beg to second the Amendment.
I also wish to refer to the next Amendment on the Order Paper, which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) has suggested, has reference to the same subject. I am usually brief in what I say, and from what you have ruled tonight. Major Milner, I have, obviously, to be briefer than I had hoped to be, as everything is ruled out of Order that I was about to say. I should like to emphasise that there is no question of personal animosity against the Ministers concerned. We have had a great deal of help from the Minister of Pensions, and the Parliamentary Secretary, but the question of whether their salaries should be increased at this time is causing considerable anxiety. I shall not go into the reasons for it. Many ex-Servicemen have expressed them, and I have my own views on the subject, and so have other hon. Members. I hope that when the Chan-

cellor of the Exchequer comes to reply, if he is to reply, he will not consider the argument "Tiresome "—I think that was his expression. I hope he will not think we are being tiresome on purpose, but that there is something to it. Most of what I wanted to say about the pensioners being out of Order, I will conclude by quoting the words of Kipling:
 Look what 'e's seen,
Look where 'e's been;
Look at 'is pension—
And Gawd save the Queen.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Dalton): The hon. Gentleman the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) and the hon. and gallant Member for Perth (Colonel Gomme-Duncan) have questioned whether this is the opportune moment to make this increase statutory. Technically speaking, their Amendment is quite futile, because even if the Amendment were carried it would remain possible under the Ministry of Pensions Act, 1916, for the Treasury to determine the salary both of the Minister and of the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: rose—

Mr. Dalton: No, I am not going to give way. I am expounding the law. The hon. Gentleman has taken a good deal of time, and has been stopped by the Chair several times. If he will listen to me I will expound to him an elementary point of the law. It has apparently eluded the notice of the hon. Gentleman that under the Ministry of Pensions Act, 1916, the salaries of these two officers may be deter mined by the Treasury, and that therefore it would be possible for this Amendment to be carried and for me tomorrow morning to enact that—

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: rose—

Mr. Dalton: The hon. Member has been in the Army and, in the words of the sergeant-major, he must " wait for it."It would be quite possible for me tomorrow morning to enact that the Minister should be paid £5,000 a year and the Parliamentary Secretary £3,000. Therefore, the Amendment is totally futile. The provision we have placed in the Bill is designed to secure the agreement of the Committee —on a Division if need be. We are prepared to go to a Division, but in our view it is reasonable that Parliament should determine that the Minister of Pensions should be paid not less than the interme-


diate grade between those Ministers of Cabinet rank who receive £5,000 a year and those who receive lesser sums, and that he should be lifted to the £3,000 level which is already paid to the Minister of State, to the Postmaster-General—whom we propose to lift to the higher £5,000 level—and which it is proposed also should be paid to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions should be paid not less than Parliamentary Secretaries attached to other Departments.
We place this before the House of Commons as a reasonable proposition. The Amendment of the hon. Gentleman is, as I have said, futile because, even it it were to be carried, the power would still remain with us to determine what the salary should be. [Interruption.] We have the majority even at this late hour of the day. Further than this, I say that, on a broad and sensible view of the question, the Minister of Pensions is sufficiently important to be remunerated no less highly than the Minister of State or the Chancellor of the Ducky of Lancaster. This office has great responsibilities and, let me add—I have noticed with very great attention the rulings you have given, Major Milner, and therefore I will restrict myself to very few words in saying this—the Minister of Pensions has been responsible for very important work. His administration can be challenged, as you have indicated, on a Supply Day when the Opposition can find the time and demand the subject.
The Ministry of Pensions is a Department of very great importance which— and I restrict myself here to the fewest possible words—under this Government has been responsible for improving the lot of many ex-Servicemen beyond anything that has been done by their predecessors, which is in itself sufficient justification for this proposal. Therefore, I ask the Committee to say that it is very reasonable, very appropriate, and very apt at this time that the salary of the Minister of Pensions should be raised to the same level as that of the Minister of State and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and that of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions—an able young man recently recruited from the Chief Whip's office—should be remunerated no

less reasonably than the general body of Parliamentary Secretaries. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will reject the Amendment that has been moved from the other side.

Captain Crookshank: May I ask the Chancellor to illustrate the point he has made? I am sure he is fortified with a very good brief, but I cannot understand his statement that he could change the Minister's salary at his own will tomorrow if he wished, because the Ministers of the Crown Act, 1937, which is the one with which we are dealing—

Mr. Dalton: The Parliamentary Secretary.

Captain Crookshank: No; the right hon. Gentleman said the salary of the Minister of Pensions could be raised to £5,000 a year. I thought that was the confirmation of what he first said. I understood him to say that he could do it tomorrow, if he wanted to, irrespective of Parliament. I just cannot understand it.

Mr. Dalton: I said "The Parliamentary Secretary." [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] There is nothing to withdraw. There is only a need for explanation, which I am always only too ready to give. I was referring to the Ministry of Pensions Act, 1916, under which the salary of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions is left to be determined by the Treasury. If I did not succeed in making that clear in the first instance I make it clear now.

Captain Crookshank: I am very much obliged to the Chancellor, but that has really no connection with what he said. I am within the recollection of the Committee and all who are here in saying that he stated that he could raise the salary of the Minister to £5,000. I am very glad that his second thought has made the point clear. If the right hon. Gentleman will take this opportunity of saying something, I will look at the Bill again and see whether he is right on the second point.

Mr. Boyd - Carpenter: Perhaps the Chancellor will make another thing clear. He told the Committee that if the Amendment were carried he himself could raise the salary of this Minister tomorrow.

Mr. Dalton: The Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The right hon. Gentleman said that the Amendment was futile because he could do it under his own powers. I would ask him whether he is seriously suggesting that he or any other Minister of the Crown, in face of the express wish of a Committee of the House of Commons by an Amendment of this nature, would act in complete defiance of that wish by an administrative process? If so, that is a new doctrine, even for the present Government.

Amendment negatived.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Captain Crookshank: I want to ask a question which I hesitated to ask when the Chancellor made a mistake last time, lest he should make another mistake. I am rather intrigued by the drafting of the Clause. I wonder whether it does what it is intended, or purports, to do. It says, in the first line:
The maximum amount of the annual salary payable under the Ministers of the Crown Act, 1937,
and so on. The form of the Act which it, presumably, amends is quite different. What the Act of 1937 lays down, in Section 1, is:
The annual salaries payable.
Then it gives groups of Ministers (a), (b) and (c). Under (c) you have to refer to the First Schedule, under Part III of which we find what is the salary of the Minister of Pensions. That is the layout of the Act we are amending. I wonder, as a matter of drafting, whether the form of the Clause is effective. I should have thought that if we amended Part III of the First Schedule of the Act it should be in those terms. The reference in the Clause should be much more detailed and not just a general reference to the Bill as a whole. I do not know whether any of the Law Officers are here. I presume they are not, at this late hour. I want to be certain about what we are doing. I am not expressing any disagreement but only asking whether this Clause is aptly worded for the purpose.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): I can assure the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that this is

an excellent way of doing it. It is easier and simpler than the method which he is suggesting. If instead of doing it in the way we have, by absolute reference and by stating the amount, we had followed the method adopted in the Ministers of the Crown Act, 1937, it would have led to unnecessary complexity. The method adopted is more simple and straightforward, and does achieve the purpose.

11.15 p.m.

Captain Crookshank: I am glad to hear it achieves that purpose. Why are the Government not repealing the words in this Act? If we pass this Bill and make it an Act there will be two Acts on the Statute Book, one saying the annual salary shall be payable as stated in the first Act and the other that the amount payable shall be £3,000. How is the poor Chancellor to know which sum ought to be paid? Surely if we are dealing with parts of the Act we ought to say so in amending legislation. It seems to be a novel form of drafting and it cannot come into the general category of " streamlined."

Mr. Glenvil Hall: Surely that point has no substance whatever. We do in this Bill refer to previous Acts, which are, by Clause 1, being amended. We say:
The maximum amount of the annual salary payable under the Ministers of the Crown Act, 1937,
shall be increased, and we say what the increased amount shall be. It is perfectly straightforward. I think the right hon. and gallant Gentleman must have his tongue in his cheek.

Captain Crookshank: This is a most uncalled-for remark and I ask whether the Minister should not withdraw it. This is a perfectly serious case. I have not seen this form of drafting before. An amending Bill states what it is amending and if the hon. Gentleman looks at the Act of 1937 he will see there are four pages of these little amendments of previous enactments. If he tells me that the Law Officers are satisfied, I have no more to say. But I think it a noteworthy occasion in the history of Parliament that we have changed the system of drafting on in important Bill.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2.—(Salaries of certain officers of the Household.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Derek Walker-Smith: I take this opportunity of raising a point on this Clause. The point I wish to refer to is contained in Subsection (3), which relates to the payment of £500 a year as a Parliamentary salary to junior Ministers of the Crown. Now, we do not in this country make any fetish of logic—

The Chairman: Is it not the hon. Gentleman's purpose to deal with something which is contained in Clause 3?

Mr. Walker-Smith: I beg your pardon. In this murky light I thought it was Subsection (3) of Clause 2.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 3.—(Certain salaries and, pensions under 1 Edw. 8 & 1 Geo. 6. c. 38 not to disqualify for salary as Member of Parliament.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Walker-Smith: I apologise, Major Milner, for being—as is perhaps unusual in a politician—ahead of my time in that way. If I may resume my rather premature observations in regard to the payment of £500 a year to junior Ministers of the Crown, I was saying that we are not a particularly logical nation and that I would be the last to urge that we should make any fetish of logic. Nevertheless it seems to me that with the provisions contained in this Clause we really have descended to depths of illogicality further than we ought to sink. It seems to me that it may be a logical thing to consider all Ministers of the Crown as also doing their duty in Parliament and to pay them the full salary of Members of Parliament. It may also be a logical thing, as has always been done in the past, to exclude Ministers of the Crown from payment of Parliamentary salaries. But what cannot in any case be considered a logical proceeding is to pay half the Ministers half a Parliamentary salary. I hope we shall have more enlightenment in the Committee this evening as to how this extraordinary state of affairs is justified. I have been unable to discover why it is

that Ministers of the Crown were in fact disqualified from the receipt of salaries. I have perused the proceedings in Committee on the Ministers of the Crown Bill, 1937, and I find that no reference was made to it in the Debate on the Clause on that occasion, and that no light was shed on the question why Ministers of the Crown should not draw a Parliamentary salary.
I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, though his service in this House does not date back to 1911 when the payment of Members was introduced, will nevertheless be able to show why this principle was established. If it was established on some good constitutional ground, presumably that consideration still applies, and if it is to be departed from, some reason there for should be given. It may be that there was some feeling of delicacy on the part of Ministers of the Crown in 1911, who, in proposing payment to Members of Parliament, wanted to make it clear that they did not wish to propose anything from which they themselves would benefit. That is a feeling which, if it existed, would do them credit; but it does not help to get a right and logical procedure in regard to the relationship between salaries for Members of Parliament and salaries for Ministers of the Crown. The only ground on which the present arrangements appear to be based is the overriding anxiety on the part of the Government to find some tax-free emoluments for junior Ministers of the Crown. That proposition appears to me to rest itself on the assumption that taxation will always remain at the high level at which it does today, which makes it so necessary for these people to have some tax-free income—

Captain Crookshank: I think my hon. Friend is in error. It is not tax-free income but surely expenditure against which expenses can be put, which is not quite the same thing.

Mr. Walker-Smith: I am very much obliged to my right hon. and gallant Friend who has put me right with his usual perspicacity. I was aware that the position is as he describes it. I was trying to telescope my remarks a little in order not to keep hon. Members opposite up longer than was necessary. If I might resume, with the correction my right hon. and gallant Friend has been good enough to supply to the Committee, I was saying


that the only justification I can see for providing an income against which expenses can be set in respect of allowances for taxation does rest upon the supposition that taxation will continue interminably at its present high level. For myself, I am not inclined to take so pessimistic a view because I do not think we shall have the present Chancellor or the present Government in office interminably.
Therefore, it we are legislating on a long term view, we should not rest ourselves on a proposition which will not be true in a few years' time, or which at any rate may not be true in a few years time. We cannot find, in my submission, any more logical basis for giving this £500 a year salary as a Member of Parliament to one half of the Ministers and not to the other half. It seems to me that it would be better, if the Minister wishes to give junior Ministers a salary that in his view would be sufficient, for him courageously to come to the House and say that their salaries are insufficient and that he proposes to fix for them salaries which he thinks will not deter Members in his party from accepting junior offices under the Crown. I appreciate, Major Milner, that there are many talented hon. Members opposite who have lucrative positions in capitalist society which they might very well be reluctant to jettison for a junior Ministry of the Crown with a salary at its present rate. If that is the reason for raising these salaries, surely the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer should come to the House and say that, bearing in mind that his party does contain these people who are enjoying large revenues because of their executive or managerial skill in the capitalist system or even their hereditary interest in it, he proposes to fix the salary for junior Ministers at a figure which will not deter them from taking office. That would be a logical thing to do, and I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer why, if it is thought that the salaries of junior Ministers are too low, he does not come to the Committee and say so, and tell us that he proposes to fix them at a scale which he thinks would be sufficiently attractive.
In any event, it appears to me that he has adopted a completely illogical course which must at the least require certain explanations to justify it and to commend it to this Committee. I would

ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he would make clear first, what is the principle on which Ministers have hitherto been disqualified from Parliamentary salaries; secondly, on what principle that has now been reversed; and thirdly, that if it is to be reversed, why it has not been wholly reversed so as to put Junior Ministers and Cabinet Ministers on the same basis and to give them the same salary as attaches to Members of Parliament as a whole.

Hon. Members: Agreed.

Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I do not know why hon. Members opposite are so keen to go home. The night is still young. I have seen some of them in much merrier mood about two o'clock in the morning than they are in tonight. After all, what is it that we arc trying to get? We are speaking on this Clause, and we are trying to increase the salaries of junior Ministers of the Crown. For the time being junior Ministers of the Crown are Members of the party opposite. No doubt if hon. Members on the back benches try very hard, in the forthcoming changes of office they may soon be in that happy position themselves. I join with the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) in asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer for some explanation of this point. During the Second Reading Debate he sought to justify what is done in this Clause, if I remember his argument rightly, by saying that whereas Members of Parliament were to gain to the extent of £400 tax-free, by the latest changes—[HON. MEMBERS:'"No."]

Mr, Dalton: Gross.

Viscount Hihchingbrooke: Yes, £400 gross against which they can claim tax relief. Junior Ministers of the Crown have £500, and it was argued that therefore that was a just division. I think the best way to look at it is from the point of view of basic salary. Members of Parliament get £1,000 against which tax can be charged. If they can prove claims for tax relief they get it entirely free. Take a Junior Minister with a salary of £1,200.

Mr. Dalton: They are all £1,500.

11.30 p.m.

Viscount Hinchingbrooke: There is provision here for £1,200 salary under


Subsection (4) of Clause I. Let us take the case of a Minister having a salary of £1,200. He is charged tax at 10s. in the £, or at any rate, something of that order. That reduces his salary to £600 or £650.
Now, under the new proposals, can he include his expenses and get another £500, making it £1,100 against the £1,000 which the ordinary Member of Parliament can get free of tax if he proves his case? I do not think that the ratio, if this be so, is a right and proper one, remembering the responsibilities of a junior Minister of this House. A much better arrangement would be to allow the junior Minister to claim on tax up to the limit of his salary if the Chancellor could approve of it. That would have given the junior Minister a clear £1,500 or £1,200, or whatever it may be—up to the full extent of his salary. In fact, I would have gone farther and allowed the senior Ministers to have done so.

Mr. David Renton: I think that important principles, though they are, perhaps, simple ones, are involved in this Clause about which there appears to be some obscurity. Until hon. Members become Ministers of the Crown—even junior ones—they should be expected to he part-timers, giving about a third of the day and half the night to Parliamentary duties, and the rest of their time to gaining other experience outside. That, I think, is expected from all sides of the House. There is no third stage, no halfway stage, between being part-timers giving some time to our own businesses, and some to the business of Parliament, and the period when we become Ministers of the Crown, and have to devote all our time to public duties. If we are to continue to attract the best people into politics, we must guarantee— especially in these days when large private incomes are not the rule—that those who are prepared to give their whole time to Parliament will be able to live in such a way as would be expected of Ministers of the British Crown. By adopting the halfway stage between the two extremes, if I may use that expression, the Bill confuses the issue. If the Chancellor can reconcile the principle to which I refer with what he has done, in the Bill, I think the Committee will be grateful.

Mr. Dalton: In these proposals we are following nearly, but not quite, the unanimous recommendation of the Select Committee. That Committee recommended that the private Member's salary should be increased from £600 to £1,000, and it also recommended Income Tax reliefs which we have not accepted. It also recommended that Ministers in receipt of less than £5,000 should receive an increase of £500, free of tax. We are now recommending that, in the same way for the junior Minister as for the private Member, proof be given in all cases of expenses incurred. We have, therefore, followed closely these unanimous proposals and, in practice no doubt, junior Ministers will be able to put up a case if not for the exemption of the whole £500, then for nearly all of it, by specific statements made as to expenses incurred. Therefore we are keeping very closely to the recommendation that was made to us unanimously by Members of all parties, but we are safeguarding it in this case as in the other, by requiring individual proof to be given. I think that this is just, because the junior Minister is in an intermediate position, and we should wish to place him between the Minister having £5,000 a year, and the private Member receiving £1,000 a year. It does still make it, under this scheme, financially Worth while for the private Member to accept office as a junior Minister, including in this the office of Whip. It does make it worth while, leaving out of account the possibility of the private Member making additional income by other activities. Therefore we do retain the relativity, and we do remove what until now was the absurd position that the private Member being invited to become a junior Whip should lose money. That is obviously nonsense. You cannot get the promotion of talent under these conditions, and under conditions that will, in fact, now stop if this is accepted. In future there will be an increment of net income, in the vast majority of cases, for the private Member who accepts promotion to the junior Ministerial rank or even to a post in the Whip's office.
I ask the Committee then to accept this proposal, noticing, in passing, the approach of the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker-Smith) to this point. He did not state it exactly; it was stated by the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) in an earlier discussion on this matter. The proposal was then suggested that


the private Member, on becoming a Minister, whether a junior Minister or a Minister of Cabinet rank, should continue to receive his full salary as a Member of Parliament. That would be open to the grave objection that you would discriminate against Members of another place. These provisions are solely designed to assist Members of this House; there is no assistance in any of these proposals, for members of another place who happen to hold Ministerial office. But if it were attempted to modify this proposal in the sense of giving full private Member's salary—the £ 1,000 a year as we have now decided it, plus £4,000 a year to make it a total of £5,000—then this would discriminate between Members of another place, and that we do not think would be wise or reasonable. On this point we think we ought to hold the relativity reasonably fairly where it gives sufficient improvement to the position of the junior Minister, or Whips, as compared with the private Member of Parliament. In this world we cannot do more than rough justice from stage to stage. We hope this particular proposition will be acceptable to the Committee.

Captain Crookshank: I notice the Chancellor did not reply to the hon. Member's request that he should explain on what principle it was decided that the Ministers should not have any kind of Parliamentary allowance. When the scheme was introduced I noticed the right hon. Gentleman did not give any explanation; I suspect he has not the foggiest idea.

Mr. Dalton: The answer is quite simple.

Captain Crookshank: It is a pity the Chancellor was not courteous enough to give it to my hon. Friend.

Mr. Dalton: It is history.

Captain Crookshank: The right hon. Member has been a lecturer in his time. He still has the opportunity, of course. On the Clause as it now stands I frankly said, on the Second Reading, that the general plan outlined was one which, on the whole, I thought was a good one. But I must say I would not have used—and I think that on reflection perhaps the Chancellor would prefer to modify them—the words which the right hon. Gentleman used just now that one of the purposes was to make it financially worth while for a Member to take office. Surely he could not have

meant that. I would have thought that the sort of way he would put it would be that the acceptance of office by a private Member should not be necessarily a financial catastrophe to that Member.

Mr. Dalton: It is the same thing.

Captain Crookshank: No, it is not. To say it is financially worth while to take office would make it appear that private Members were grasping at the opportunity of getting office for the money they were going to get out of it. That is the only interpretation of those words, and that is why I say the Chancellor did not really mean that. What he meant was the case to which I alluded in the Second Reading Debate, namely, that it was known that on occasions hon. Members who had either professional or business ties and had certain obligations at the time they were suggested for office, did not find it possible to accept office; that it was incumbent upon them if they accepted office to give up all other sources of income, and that it was to get over that difficulty that a certain rise in the salary of junior Ministers was considered by Governments desirable. But it was not a case of making it financially worth while to become a Minister. I hope, without being at all smug, that we can say of hon. Members opposite, as I hope it can be said of us on this side, that those who take office take it, rightly or wrongly, because they think they can help the State in a higher capacity than if they were private Members.
I would, however, like to come back to the question of whether it is possible to deal with Cabinet Ministers under these proposals. Under this Clause, I think the right hon. Gentleman can do so, because it refers to Ministers so long as the salary is less than £5,000 a year. It does not link it up with the question of whether they are first-class Ministers or junior Ministers. It merely gives the touchstone of whether in the Estimate they are put down as receiving £5,000 a year, should the Committee of Supply grant it to them. So far as I can see, if we passed this Clause, there would be nothing to make it impossible for the salaries of all those Cabinet Ministers in the next Estimates to be changed from £5,000 to £4,500. They would then, I presume, come within this Clause; it would then be competent for them to receive £500 as Members of this House and,


by virtue of that office as a Member of this House, such a Minister would be able to charge against that £500 any necessary expenses incurred in the duty of a Member of Parliament. I think I am right. I think this Clause makes that possible.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: indicated dissent.

Captain Crookshank: If the Financial Secretary would explain to me why not, I should be glad. I am only anxious to help. I feel there is a grievance on the part of Cabinet Ministers who are earning £5,000. I myself have never been in that position, so I speak quite impartially. It is only since I have left the Post Office that anybody seems to have thought fit to raise the salary, and I am grateful for the sake of my successor, that he has been so fortunate, although I cannot think his merits are greater than those of his predecessors. However, he has been fortunate. This is a matter which Cabinet Ministers obviously find difficult to raise themselves. I hope, therefore, that the Chancellor will look at this matter and see whether, without any more Bills, under the wording of this Clause, the actual Cabinet salary could drop to £4,500, thereby enabling Ministers under this Clause to get the £500. The gross amount would be the same, but they would have something against which they could charge constituency expenses to which they are exposed just as much as the rest of us. I hope the Chancellor will consider that point. I understood from what he said that he thought that would be a discrimination against Ministers in the Upper House. Of course, if all the salaries were dropped it would be a discrimination to the extent that £500 a year would be dropped from the gross salary if it were made universal, but it is not beyond the wit of man to introduce Supplementary Estimates and, indeed, in the main Estimates it is frequently the case within my knowledge that particular posts or offices carry varying salaries according to the occupant. It is quite common to find a little footnote saying, " during the occupancy of the present holder of this office " such and such a personal salary will be paid. Therefore—and again I am only trying to help the Chancellor—it would be quite possible, I think, subject to any advice he may take, to have just such a proviso, that if the holder of that particular

office was a Member of another place the salary should remain at £5,000 a year, but if the holder were a Member of this House it would be £4,500.
I throw these suggestions out to the Chancellor in a real desire to help the comparatively few hon. Members who sit or the front bench opposite and who are unfairly treated in this respect. It is a point of real substance. I do not see why all of us who sit in this Committee should not be treated as Members of Parliament primarily; and the fact that some become Under-Secretaries and some become Cabinet Ministers should be over and above that. However, the Chancellor does not agree, to the extent of letting everybody have £1,000 a year as Members of Parliament, and makes variations, because he has drafted the Clause in this way. We have to accept that. He has the majority, and he can drive the Clause through if he wants to. He can put it at £500. All I suggest is that he and his advisers should apply their minds to seeing whether the assistance we are giving to junior Ministers in this Clause should not be extended to those who at present get a gross sum of £5,000. Perhaps by some rearrangement it might be possible to bring them within the benefit of this Clause. If that arrangement can be made, I do not suppose anybody would have any objection.

11.45 p.m.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: Talking of Ministerial salaries is an embarrassing matter. As most of what the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) said dealt with Ministers of Cabinet rank drawing £5,000 a year, perhaps it is less embarrassing for me, not being one of them, to reply than it would be for the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. This matter has been carefully examined, and it is the Government's view that only junior Ministers should be legislated for. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman wanted to know whether the wording of this Bill did not enable Ministers of the Crown receiving £5,000 a year to be brought within the ambit of Clause 3. That is impossible, because the Ministers of the Crown Act, 1937, lays down quite definitely that the annual salary
To each of the Ministers of the Crown named in Part I of the First Schedule to this Act, shall, subject to the provisions of this Act as to number, be five thousand pounds.


Thus the salaries of these Ministers are definitely fixed. Clause 3 of the present Bill, as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman knows, applies only to those receiving less than £5,000.
The other question the right hon. and gallant Gentleman asked was why the amount paid to Members of Parliament is called a " salary."That, perhaps, is a lesson to all of us. It dates back to 1911 when the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, the late Earl Lloyd George, referred to the new allowance which it was proposed to pay under a resolution then passed by the House as a " salary."Those of us who have gone through the evidence submitted to the Collins Committee at the end of the first world war, and who have read the reports of the Debates in this House will, perhaps, remember that the late Sir Austen Chamberlain, in one of those Debates, referred to the fact that it was a pity that this allowance had been referred to as a " salary." Had it been called an " allowance " history might have been different. But the fact is that it is called a salary, and I am afraid we have to accept the facts as they are. As the present proposals are practically the findings of the Committee that sat upstairs, I hope this Committee will accept them.

Captain Crookshank: I am much obliged to the Financial Secretary for calling my attention to that. I was not sure, in view of what had been said about the Minister of Pensions—

Mr. Dalton: The Act of 1916.

Captain Crookshank: No, it is the same Act of 1937. That is where the Chancellor keeps going astray. What seemed to me to apply in one case I thought might apply in the other. Evidently the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not want to help his colleagues, but it is no concern of mine, if they do not want it. I was merely offering a suggestion that this was the occasion on which it might have been done. The Financial Secretary has pointed out prohibiting words, but there is nothing to prevent an Amendment being made within this Bill to take out the prohibiting words. However, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not want to have the benefit, and if he does not want his colleagues to have the benefit, who am I to press it upon them? I thought it was

a generous gesture on the part of hon. Members on this side of the Committee.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4.—(Short title ana commencement.)

Captain Crookshank: I have an Amendment to this Clause on the Paper, but I do not want to detain the Committee on it. I put it down because it seemed to me very strange that we should be asked to make the Bill retrospective to 1st April. This House of Commons has a natural objection to retrospective legislation upon whatever topic, but it is not very common that we have one increasing—

The Chairman: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman move his Amendment?

Captain Crookshank: I was going to as a matter of form, before I sat down.

The Chairman: I was not clear whether the right hon. and gallant Gentleman was moving the Amendment or not. If not, it is my duty to propose the Question on the Clause.

Captain Crookshank: I beg to move, in page 2, line 36, to leave out Subsection (2).
I wish to make it plain that it is Subsection (2) and not Subsection (1) with which I am dealing. It is very rare to have retrospective authority under an Act to pay an increase of salary. Hon. Members, wherever they sit in the Committee, have an objection to retrospective legislation, and quite rightly, because it invokes people in risk respecting things which they may have done in perfect innocence. If a retrospective Clause is presented to us we should know exactly why retrospective effect is sought. I do not know what the reason can be here. I should have thought it would have been reasonable to wait until the Act was passed until the salaries were increased. It rested entirely in the hands of the Government when they should introduce the Bill. If they thought 1st April the proper day for the increase, they should have introduced the Bill in time for that day. It is only because they have introduced such a mass of legislation that they cannot get their priorities right. I am not surprised. I suppose it is because they could not find time for this Bill


earlier, or because it slipped by and they forgot about it, and they come now and ask us to give them two months' salary retrospectively.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman received his on Saturday.

Captain Crookshank: I do not know what the Financial Secretary has in mind. Two months seem quite unnecessary, anyhow. Beyond that, of course, I do not see why this should date back to an earlier part of the year. The Financial Secretary is dithering there because it has just come into his mind that the Resolution which was passed last week, and which it would be quite out of Order for me to discuss, enabled Members of Parliament to be paid from 1st April. But, of course, we have not finished with that topic because a Supplementary Estimate has to be placed before the House, and until the Committee has agreed to the Supplementary Estimate, and the House has accepted it on Report, there is no proper legal basis for the payment. The Financial Secretary does not know that when that Supplementary Estimate comes before the House there will not be a reduction made of an exactly corresponding amount, between the date on which the Resolution is passed in this House and the other date.
This is not a closed subject and therefore the Financial Secretary cannot base any argument on it, because he just does not know what is going to happen to the Supplementary Estimate, and until it is passed there is no legal authority for the payment to be made. I am not sure that it is not improper although the impropriety will no doubt be swallowed temporarily pending the regularisation of the position by law. This Clause stands on its own merits as to whether it is right in this Bill to ask for authority to make this increase retrospectively by two months. Again, I suppose this is subject to Supplementary Estimate so that we are not parting with it for the last time today. That, incidentally, is why I would not dream of dividing the Committee upon it today. It is the last round which counts.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): The right hon. and gallant Gentleman would have to be very quick to do it today. It is two minutes to twelve.

Captain Crookshank: The Home Secretary is too quick for me, but although it would be a different calendar day it would be the same Parliamentary day, so I think I am just as right as he is. I hope the Chancellor will give us some explanation as to this payment.

Mr. Dalton: The answer is the same as it was on Second Reading of the Bill—salaries are paid monthly. A month is deemed to run from the first day of the month to the last day of the month. It appeared to us most convenient to change the payment, whether of private Members' salaries or of junior Ministerial salaries, as from the first day of the month, as I explained on Second Reading. It was on 30th April that I announced the decision of the Government, on the recommendation of the Select Committee. I then stated that the Government proposed to make all these payments, whether of private Members or of junior Ministers, as from April 1. Full notice was given, and the Opposition did not, I think, raise any great objection at that time. My statement was accepted as being, it seemed, not unreasonable. An interval of time has elapsed; we have brought the Bill forward in due course. We did not think it so important that it should take precedence over the Bill for nationalising the coal mines or the Cable & Wireless Bill. We have brought it forward in its due place and I am here carrying out, in the terms of the Bill, the statement I made when I announced the Government's decision. Salaries are paid from the first of the month and that is the reason why junior Ministers, no less than private Members of Parliament, are entitled, in the terms of the declaration, to the increased salary as from the 1st April.

12 mdnt.

It is perfectly true, as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman says, that there will be another occasion, when the consequential Estimate is presented, when the Opposition can present a case and move, if they choose, a Motion to reduce the Vote; that occasion is safeguarded to them. Meanwhile we are asking that this provision should be brought into line with the same provisions regarding increased salaries of private Members, in respect of which, as one of my hon. Friends surmised, no Opposition Members have refused the increased cheques which were furnished to them last month. I hope, as


the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has said, he will not divide the House tonight, that we may postpone any further discussion of the matter until the Estimate is presented in due course.

Captain Crookshank: That would probably be the best thing to do.

Mr. Dalton: Yes.

Captain Crookshank: No doubt the right hon. Gentleman will make sure that, under the Estimate for this year, we can vote money for a year which is closed.

Mr. Dalton: That has all been provided for.

Captain Crookshank: It has all been provided for. Then it is all right. We can discuss it. We shall see the Estimate when it is presented. I therefore beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

BRITISH MUSEUM BILL [Lords]

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. HUBERT BEAUMONT in the Chair]

Clause 1.—Power of Trustees to arrange for exhibition of Magna Carta in Library of Congress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

12.3 a.m.

Sir Patrick Hannon (Birmingham, Moseley): I want to remind the Committee of the discussion in another place on the question of spelling as between Magna " Carta " and Magna " Charta."I suggest that there is no reason why, since all kinds of deeds and documents have been signed from time to time in relation to this great Charter, the spelling should have to be changed now by Act of Parliament. We find in the Court Rolls of 1273, which is a fairly remote and substantial authority, that the spelling is " Magna Charta." Why the aspirate should be such an offence to another place I do not know; but their Lordships decided that the offending letter should he eliminated from the spelling. Again, I find that in 1630 Ben Jonson, who had

the credit of spelling the English language best in his own time, used the aspirate. I find, still further, the aspirate used in 1643 and 1686. In the Oxford Dictionary, which gives authorities dating back to 1536, the first spelling includes the aspirate. For those reasons I contend it is improper that the spelling of the title of a document that contains so much of the history and the story of this Island should be changed. All the series of volumes which deal with the spelling of the word down the centuries, at all events from the middle of the 16th century, include the aspirate. I will not keep the Committee more than a few minutes but I think care should be exercised in dealing with a question of the orthography of an historic name which has made its mark not merely in the story of these islands but in the story of freedom throughout the whole world. I do not see why this inoffensive aspirate should be eliminated. We had an eloquent dissertation from no less a person that the Lord Chancellor supported by various other eminent Members of their Lordships' House, all of whom spent considerable time in dealing this vicious blow to a harmless letter which is part of the English language, I submit that before this Clause is ordered to stand part of the Bill there should be some protest on record against the indiscriminate way in which the aspirate in this case has been dealt with in another place.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment; read a Third time, and passed, without Amendment.

ROAD VEHICLES (STANDING PASSENGERS)

12.10 a.m.

Sir Wavell Wakefield (St. Marylebone): I beg to move,
That the Standing Passengers (Amendment) Order, 1946 (S.R. &amp; O. 1946, No. 695), dated 16th May, 1946, a copy of which was presented on 16th May, be annulled.

Mr. C. S. Taylor: May I raise a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-


Speaker? This Order, No. 695, the annulment of which my hon. Friend is now moving, intends to revoke the Standing Passengers No. 2 Order, 1941, and the Public Service Vehicles (Equipment and Use) Regulations, 1941. The point about this Order is that it is amending two previous Orders. I have tried to get a copy of the two previous Orders in the Vote Office and there is none available. I have tried also to get a copy of the two Orders from the Library and I understand that there are only three copies of each of those Orders in the Library, which is obviously not sufficient for 640 Members of Parliament. May I ask whether, when a Debate of this nature takes place, these Orders could be provided in the Vote Office for the use of Members?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): I do not think that is a matter for me.

Mr. Walker-Smith: Further to that point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. May I ask whether you would accept a Motion that the Debate be adjourned until such time as these Orders are available for hon. Members in the Vote Office?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I cannot accept such a Motion. As I understand the hon. Member who raised the point, a number of copies, probably a limited number, are available in the Library.

Mr. C. S. Taylor: There are only three copies available in the Library for the use of the whole of the House. The only effect of this Motion is to revoke the previous Orders. Obviously, it is necessary to have the original Orders before one can consider the effect of the revoking Order on the original Orders.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am sorry, but I cannot help the hon. Member. Perhaps he might have obtained copies had he asked the appropriate authority for them earlier.

Mr. C. S. Taylor: Who are those authorities?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The Government Departments involved, I should imagine.

Sir W. Wakefield: During the abnormal conditions of the war, the restriction upon the number of passengers standing in buses was lifted. It was clear that be-

cause of such abnormal conditions it was desirable that as many passengers as possible should be carried in buses and be able to get home as quickly as possible. The Order against which we are praying today no longer permits of the continuance of the carrying of the extra number of passengers permitted during the abnormal conditions of the war. This Order reverts to the situation which existed before these abnormal conditions arose and the number of passengers allowed to stand in buses during peak hours is, once more, again limited. We are asking that this Order should be annulled because abnormal conditions are still continuing. We consider that, except perhaps for the dropping of bombs and the falling of V1's and V2's, abnormal conditions still exist. The conditions existing to-day are indeed in many respects worse than the conditions during the war. We have only to look around to see the difficulty over fuel, the difficult food situation, and the housing conditions, to realise that we are not in normality. We are in very abnormal conditions. During the war there was a shortage of buses. That meant queues, and people had to wait in order to get home. The reason for allowing a greater number of people to stand in buses was to get them home more quickly and to shorten the queues. The shortage of buses continues. The firms which manufactured buses made aircraft and military vehicles during the war, and clearly it is not possible, in the short space of time which has elapsed since the end of the war, to replace the deficiency of the war years. The shortage of buses will continue for some time. Queues still exist, and will continue as long as these abnormal conditions remain. So it is only right that we should ask why this Order has been introduced. Why should not extra passengers continue to be conveyed in the buses and the queues shortened so that people can avoid having to wait a long time on the pavement, as they have to do now, because the extra number which could be carried in the buses is not allowed?
The public and this House are entitled to know the reasons which have compelled the Minister of Transport to bring forward this Order at this particular time. We are entitled to ask the Minister whether it is because of the strain on conductors and conductresses. Is that the reason behind the introduction of an Order of this kind? During the war


we had women conductors. It would not be right in a Debate of this kind not to pay a very great tribute to those women who carried on so gallantly in the very trying wartime conditions. They did magnificently and the public is without a doubt grateful to them for what they did. They carried on in those abnormal conditions under a great strain, the buses carrying many more standing passengers than it is proposed to allow now. The conductresses are now being replaced by ex-Servicemen coming back from campaigns much fitter and stronger than the women. These men should be able to carry on and overcome whatever extra strain exists. I would like to pay a tribute to these ex-Servicemen for the atmosphere they are bringing into the buses. They are wonderfully cheerful, and it is a good thing for members of the public living under great hardship and stress and just having come through a great war, to have this cheery atmosphere, and to feel that they are looked after so well by these men who have returned to their work. But surely, if there is a strain on the conductors—if the women were able to carry on through the war—the ex-Servicemen should be able to bear it. Ought not we to consider the greatest good for the greatest number? Many workers who are anxious to get home after working long hours have to stand in queues, and in that way they become even more tired than they should be. That will not help national production. We have had many requests from the Prime Minister and other Ministers to increase national production, but if workers have to stand unnecessarily long hours, then production will be affected. That is an important point directly affecting this Order. It is a point which should be considered and not overlooked.
We on this side of the House really cannot accept this present position. It is not good enough that the public should have to suffer inconvenience in this way; nor is it satisfactory that conductors and conductresses should have this unnecessary strain. Why, at the peak hours, cannot an extra conductor or conductress be put on to buses, one to be on the top, and the other on the lower deck in order to collect the fares? Why cannot tickets be issued at the queues by machine or some other means in order to ease the work of conductors and conductresses at peak hours? This Order simply increases the inconvenience of the public. There are many

improvements which can be made to overcome the difficulties of conductors and conductresses, but they, perhaps, are long-term improvements. It is for the coming months that we are concerned, and we think, too, that there should be more consideration for the public. The public deserves some relief after six years of war. It wants easement of strain and hardship, and it is no use at all imposing this Order and thereby putting more hardship upon the public. Abnormal conditions exist, and will continue to exist for some time to come. While abnormal conditions persist, there should be greater opportunities for the public to travel without this restriction, and I do ask that this Order should be annulled.

12.24 a.m.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter (Kingston-upon-Thames): I beg to second the Motion.
This Order, the annulment of which has been so lucidly moved by my hon. Friend— [Interruption]—lucidly enough, I think, for it to percolate into the mentality of some hon. Members opposite— by removing the relaxation upon restrictions, puts the legal position of standing passengers back to where it was in the early part of 1941. I suggest that this provision commits the fatal folly, especially for a Minister of Transport, of putting the cart before the horse. Of course, it is generally agreed that no one will stand in a bus if he can sit down. The fact that people have to stand in buses is due solely to the shortage of adequate transport today, and it is, therefore, dealing with the matter in the wrong order to impose, or re-impose, this restriction upon standing in buses rather than to adopt the constructive proposal of providing more bus transport. That there is this acute shortage will not, I am sure, be disputed. Any Member who cares to visit the immediate neighbourhood of Victoria station during the rush hour will see substantial and pathetic evidence in support of that, and I ask the right hon. Gentlemen opposite, whose own transportation is provided for, very properly, in official cars, to appreciate that a very great part of the population of London and Greater London has to travel under conditions of very great difficulty today. That being so, it appears to be wholly unjustifiable at this moment to re-impose restrictions, the effect of which will merely be that the bus queues will grow longer and that people


who could be proceeding homeward in the comparatively comfortable circumstances of standing will continue to stand in queues, often in the rain, not even beginning their journey home.
I feel that the House is entitled to an explanation of the reasons which have impelled the right hon. Gentleman, who, I am sure, means well, to go back to the legal position of early 1941. One cannot altogether free one's mind from the feeling that these Orders are not wholly unconnected with the attempt by a certain number—a quite small minority, I believe—of the bus personnel a short time ago to take the law on this matter into their own hands. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will re-assure the House that there is, in fact, no connection. It would manifestly be fatal to act, and display conduct in these affairs so that it even appeared that a Minister of the Crown should yield to pressure of that sort. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will find himself able to give a reassurance to the House on this matter.
The only sensible argument, as my hon. Friend suggests, for imposing this great strain on the public is that it is hoped in some way to relieve the strain on the bus crews. I find it a little difficult to understand how the strain which was so successfully borne by the lady members of the bus crews for five years should prove an excessive strain for the returning Servicemen who are, one is glad to see, again manning the buses. The only reason for any such strain at all is the necessity for collecting fares. I should be grateful if the right hon. Gentleman would explain to the House whether that is the reason; whether it is, in fact, considered to be right to impose this additional inconvenience on the public solely to facilitate the collection of fares. If so, it would be a somewhat striking action on the part of the present Government to pay so conspicuous a tribute to the principles of a profit motive, and I hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite will not think I am trying to steal their thunder when I say that I would rather that a bit of that profit were lost if the British public were able to get home a little more speedily and with a little less discomfort.

12.30 a.m.

The Minister of Transport (Mr. Barnes): I observe that the hon. Member for St.

Marylebone (Sir W. Wakefield) and the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) have requested certain statements from me, which I shall be very happy to give. I also notice that when one is proposing to continue these powers one is urged to revert to prewar practices of freedom as quickly as possible, but when action is taken on the lines that I am proposing to take tonight one is then urged to maintain these compulsory powers on the grounds of the abnormality of present day conditions. I think hon. Members will have to realise that they cannot use those arguments too freely in so many directions.
Now that this issue has been raised, I would like to take the opportunity of removing a good many misunderstandings that have surrounded this problem of standing passengers on our public service vehicles, which has been created during recent months. May I, first of all, remind the House very briefly of the history of this problem? Before the war it was a common practice, arising from the Traffic Act of 1930, for a maximum number of five passengers to be standing in our public service vehicles during peak hours. We all recognise that during the war the most abnormal conditions developed in our transport system and, by general agreement and negotiations from September, 1939, to October, 1941, the number of standing passengers was lifted from five to eight. Then, from October, 1941, to May of this year, the number was increased to 12. I think hon. Members will agree that to crowd 12 additional passengers into any public service vehicle means not only difficulties to the transport staff, but discomfort to the passengers who have to stand and to the rest of the passengers in the vehicle. That is not a situation to which we would look forward as a normal state of affairs.
What I am proposing to do in revoking one regulation and amending the other, is to revert to the prewar practice. I would like to remind the House of the circumstances under which we have arrived at that position, file hon. Member for St. Marylebone paid his tribute to the conductresses and the members of the Transport staff who carried on under very difficult conditions during the war. I would like warmly to associate myself with those commendations. But there is a very common practice of praising working people when it suits individuals and


condemning them on other occasions. I remember that when we had the transport difficulties in November of last year the attitude of hon. Members opposite was entirely different from the attitude which they are adopting tonight. Those same conductresses and bus drivers who carried on when many of our big industrial cities were being subjected to blitzing, began, if you like, to take the law into their own hands and object to the continuation of these regulations after the war with Germany had ceased. I had just taken over this office and had to make myself acquainted with the whole of the circumstances. I discovered that there was, as is often the case in troubles of this description, a psychological background to their grievances. Their grievance was that the months were passing, and no one appeared to be bothering whether the wartime concessions and agreements, which they had freely negotiated under wartime conditions, were to be removed within a reasonable time.
When the matter was reviewed it appeared to me that this was a fairly practical problem to be resolved by agreement after the war, in the same way that we moved into those conditions during the war. The first thing upon which to be satisfied was the period in which the public transport undertakings of this country could reasonably increase their services to remove the necessity of the wartime regulations. As a result of the discussions that took place between the officers of my Department, representatives of important transport undertakings and representatives of the trade union,, there was a general agreement that by progressive reduction we should eventually come to the required position in about the middle of this year. As a matter of fact, by three successive stages—in the early part of January of this year, in February of this year, and now by these two regulations, one to be amended and one to be revoked—we have completed the process which was then agreed upon that would eventually get us back to more or less prewar conditions. I would explain to hon. and right hon. Members that this was not authorised by myself until I was satisfied with regard to the convenience of the public.
With regard to London Transport, there are 500 more buses operating at peak hours than at the VE-Day period. [An HON. MEMBER: "All No. 11's."] It is

no use hon. Members advocating the solution of more buses and then trying to dismiss it when we have practical evidence of more buses. Whatever hon. Members may say, these are facts; they are things that stand out without fear of contradiction. From VE-Day to November, 1945, was the period in which the dispute was developing. If this had not been dealt with in that rough-and-ready way, trying to obtain a common sense compromise that met every legitimate need, it might very well have developed into a very considerable difficulty. With regard to London Transport, the mileage increase from VE-Day to November, 1945, was 300,000 miles per week; from November, 1945, to May, 1946—the period in which I am operating this decison—the weekly increase in mileage of the London Transport system alone was over 1,000,000 miles—a total of 1,300,000 miles per week. That works out at approximately a 38 per cent, increase in weekly mileage. In the provinces the increase of public vehicle mileage from VE-Day to November, 1945, was over 1,000,000 miles a week. From November, 1945, to May, 1946, there was an increase of over 2,000,000 miles in the provincial centres of this country.

Mr. David Renton: When the right hon. Gentleman says " provincial centres " does he include the rural areas as well?

Mr. Barnes: Certainly. These figures represent an increase in the total weekly mileage of these services of 4,300,000 miles per week during the 12 months since VE-Day. That represents a very substantial expansion in the public road passenger services of this country. I cannot conceive any way in which we could have aggravated this position more than to have maintained under that expansion of those services the onerous conditions that prevailed during the war, which could have been justified only in the very restricted services that prevailed during the war.

Sir W. Wakefield: I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman could amplify the vety interesting figures he has given us, by telling us the figures of buses running at the present time, compared with the numbers of buses running in prewar days, and also the mileage then. That will help us to get a better comparison.

Mr. Barnes: I was not able in the short time at my disposal to complete these figures. What I was anxious to do was to convey to hon. Members the considerable expansion of services that has taken place, and which I satisfied myself last November would take place when I agreed to the progressive removal of those onerous wartime conditions. That has been carried out by agreement. The London Passenger Transport Board's services are now almost back to prewar conditions. But still expansions are taking place; because, I think, we have to face the fact that it is of no use merely getting back to prewar conditions in transport, and that there will be a general increase in the desire for travel, and that we shall, possibly, have to aim at a very enlarged service. But at the present moment the London Passenger Transport Board's services are as I say practically back to prewar standard, and measures are in hand for continuing the process.
I consider that, in developing a policy of this character, I have to keep before me three broad considerations. The first is the comfort and convenience of the travelling public; the second is the improvement in road transport services; and the third is the welfare of the platform staff. We saw at the end of last year how difficult it would become if that good relationship that has always existed between the operative staff of our transport services and the general public were interrupted, and that was avoided on that occasion. Therefore, in my view, the House would be doing a wrong thing if it stood in the way of reverting to this prewar practice. I found a very deep sense of grievance in the minds of the staff. It is of no use the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames trying to convey that this resentment was limited to a comparatively small section of the workers in the transport industry. It was very widespread. It applied throughout the country, and it was clear that if this had not been dealt with by the common-sense method of spreading it over six months, side by side with the expansion of the services, we might have met eventually a temperamental situation with which it would have been extremely difficult to grapple. Having taken the opportunity of conveying to hon. and right hon. Members these details of the expansion of the services and, I hope,

a full justification of the decision I am making, I ask the House now to support my action.

Sir W. Wakefield: Could the Minister give us any views he may have formed on constructive suggestions to help to relieve the strain on conductors and conductresses until such time as there is an adequate bus service, and standing in any numbers in queues is no longer necessary?

Mr. Barnes: This, of course, leaves us with the problem we have always had of the peak hour traffic, and neither the operation nor the revoking of this Order will affect appreciably the problem of peak hour traffic in our great industrial cities. A few days ago I made an appeal in reply to a question, that the problem of staggering should be squarely faced. The broad situation we meet with regard to peak hour traffic is this. It does not matter how rapidly we expand our services, there is a general tendency towards shorter hours in all forms of industry, and an irresistible movement of opinion towards uniform hours. While these two processes go on side by side, it is impossible to organise our transport facilities to grapple with the huge concentration of traffic of these two hours in the morning and two hours in the evening. I made an appeal on that occasion—and I repeat it now in reply to the hon. Gentleman opposite—that unless public authorities and the large corporations cooperate with our transport authorities to stagger hours and spread over the working day, we shall still have to face this problem of peak hour traffic.

12.47 a.m.

Mr. Challen: We have heard from the Minister what strikes me as being a great deal of bureaucratic pabulum with statistics provided by his Department but hardly touching at all the human problem that London has to face. Talk about " peak hours " about " staggering," and so forth is idle in the face of the problem which Londoners have to meet. I do not know whether the Minister has travelled by bus as I have for a number of years, and as most London Members have. I do not know whether he reads his morning and evening newspapers. If he does, he must read day after day of the utter confusion that takes place in the bus services owing to the breakdown in the tubes. In today's paper I read that for two hours, transport on


the Piccadilly line was hung up and the men and women going to work had to come out and take buses. What is the good of talking about staggering and peak hours when faced with a situation of that nature? A railway line breaks down, the electric current fails, and people are stuck in the tunnels and brought out to the surface buses. Talk about going back to 1941 conditions does not touch the problem at all.
I would remind the Minister, as he has been reminded already, that we are in fact going back to legislation of 1941. The Minister is invoking emergency powers to restore the " five standing " rule in buses. I suggest to him that we are under as great an emergency as ever we were. For my part I pay the greatest tribute to the conductors and to those who are termed " conductresses "—though personally I like the term " conductors "In their case also. I find that these women, throughout the war, have been gallant and helpful in the work they did in the buses. I do not believe they are prepared to prevent the earners of bread and butter from travelling, or that they wish to leave standing in queues people waiting to go home from work, or to go to work—[An HON. MEMBER: " Waiting to go home to bed."] Yes, waiting to go home to bed, wives waiting to go home to cook their husbands' dinners or husbands waiting to go home to eat those dinners. I do not believe that those conductors are so hardhearted and inhuman as hon. Members suggest.
The Minister was talking bureaucratic nonsense. He was retailing statistics given to him by his Department to justify a return to 1941 conditions. We arc under a greater emergency now than we ever were before the war. London traffic is getting worse and worse. London passengers are getting very angry. I do not believe they are prepared to put up with legislation of this nature.

12.52 a.m.

Mr. Wilkins: I have been very surprised at the reception which this Order has received in my constituency. I feel that the Minister should be anxious to know the effects of such an Order on the public mind. It was perhaps unfortunate that the Order came into effect in my part of the country during a bad spell of rainy weather. The result, as I am informed on the authority of my

own son—I think I can believe his evidence—is that people had to wait for 25 minutes in the queue, getting wet to the skin. Following representations of people who were in the queue, and of the tramway regulators, on two succeeding nights the tramway company provided additional buses, which took the people for the time being, but they were taken off suddenly at the end of two days.
I submit that this Order is premature. If we had waited a little longer until there was more transport I could have understood it. I have heard hon. Members say that in London there are great difficulties. We have tried to overcome our difficulties in Bristol by providing a conductor at the queue at the terminus with an automatic machine giving out tickets before people entered the buses, and thereby reducing the amount of work to be done on the vehicles. It was a very simple expedient. We have been using it for many months, but it does not solve the problem.
I reinforce what has been said by the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. C. S. Taylor), who is so regular in his attend ance at Evening Prayers. Hon. Members on this side are very much concerned about this matter. Until such time as adequate transport facilities are available there should be some relaxation in the number of standing passengers. You told us just now in your speech—

Mr. Speaker: I do not remember telling the hon. Member anything at all.

Mr. Wilkins: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I mean my right hon. Friend the Minister. He told us just now that his main concern was the comfort and convenience of the passengers. I would respectfully submit to him that the principal concern should be the convenience before the comfort of the passengers. To get all the people home from their place of employment is important to them. I would respectfully ask him to give further consideration to this Order and see if something cannot be done to ameliorate the effect it is having on the travelling public.

12.56 a.m.

Mr. David Renton: I too, like the hon. Member for South Bristol (Mr. Wilkins), listened with great care and attention to the Minister. He convinced me at any rate that he has in-


creased the facilities over the whole country quite considerably during the past year. But a major factor which he appears to have overlooked is that since VE-day the demand for transport, and especially bus transport, has increased immensely, and the increased facilities of which he has given us evidence, have to be regarded in the light of the increased demand. When we come to weigh one against the other can we be sure the time has come for reducing the number of standing passengers a bus can carry? If I may say so with the greatest respect, the emphasis in this Debate has been on the problem of bus transport in London, but there is a no less serious—perhaps a more serious—problem in the rural areas. I say without hesitation that, if this rule comes into operation and is enforced rigidly in rural areas, there will be many school children who will not get to school at all. I know of rural places where the children are only getting to school because a large number of them are allowed to stand on the buses; and I will give the Minister particulars if he wishes. I do not wish to be merely contentious and destructive in this argument. I would like to put one constructive suggestion and it is this. The Minister may know that on some of the trams there is a front exit and an entrance at the rear. It seems to me that there could be a method of controlling the standing passengers and helping the conductors very greatly by easing the flow of people through the vehicle. It does not appear that a great many fares are lost on the trams on account of the use of the front exit because as a matter of fact it is worked by the driver who has a bell which is rung for him if a passenger wishes to get off. It should not be very difficult when a bus is brought in for overhaul to make a quick modification, and to adapt a number of vehicles in that manner. In conclusion, I would say that British people are cooperative with one another, and are long suffering in adversity. But they would rather get home quickly, even in some kind of discomfort, than wait in queues to travel in comfort.

12.59 a.m.

Mr. Walker-Smith: I rise to make only one short point which I had hoped to make by way of interrogation rather than by formal speech. The Minis-

ter has referred in some detail to the increases in services. In common with other hon. Members I listened with great attention to that. I was however hoping to hear something from him with regard to improvements in the spacing and phasing of bus services. As I see it, we are faced with an alternative between having passengers standing in buses and having them standing in queues. If the Minister were able to improve the phasing and spacing of the actual bus services, he would have a stronger case for the action he is now taking, because by doing so, he would reduce the time spent in standing in those queues. It may be that the actual time schedules are perfectly worked out. I do not know. But it is common knowledge that the actual running of the buses on many Metropolitan routes leaves a lot to be desired. The No. 11 buses are a particularly blatant instance of this. They are rather like Wordsworth's clouds which "moved together when they moved at all."It is this question of mass arrival and long delays which makes people stand for a long time in a queue, and reconciles them to standing in crowded buses as the lesser of two evils, particularly in inclement weather. I should be very grateful if the Minister would consider that aspect of the case in the light of the action he now proposes to take.

1.1 a.m.

Mr. C. S. Taylor: I am sorry that the Minister did not listen to the arguments from all sides of the House before he replied to this Debate. I think he might have given us just a little longer run for our money before he rose to answer the speeches of the mover and seconder. I think we are all agreed that the main reason for this Order tonight is that there are not enough buses. I do ask the Minister to exercise a little imagination in dealing with this problem. For example, has he considered issuing books of tickets, say, 25 1½d. or 2d. tickets, to those who wish to travel regularly on buses, so that when they walk on to the bus the ticket collector can tear off a ticket and does not have to bother to collect fares and punch tickets? We are thinking not only of the comfort cf the passengers, but of the comfort and the amenities of the ticket collector, and I understand that the reason why this Order is introduced is that the ticket collectors found it difficult to collect the


fares and issue the tickets in a crowded bus. We are thinking of ways and means whereby the ticket collector's job could be made a little less hard than perhaps it is in a crowded bus at the moment. Several points have been mentioned, such as automatic machines at the big queues, selling of tickets by inspectors, in order to relieve the conductors on the buses.
None of these points has been answered by the Minister. I hope that before we have to divide on this Motion or before we consider whether we are going to divide or not, the Minister will answer some of the points that have been raised, not only on this side of the House but on his side of the House also. [An HON. MEMBER: "One."] Perhaps only one, but I know that there are other hon. Members opposite who are concerned about this matter. I discussed the Order with certain hon. Members opposite before we had this Debate tonight, and they are sympathetic, just as we are, towards the public who have to remain in the bus queues in pouring rain night after night without being able to get home. Where is the Dunkirk spirit of "Get you home"? That is what we ask now and I hope the Minister will reply.

1.4 a.m.

Sir W. Wakefield: The Minister did ask us whether we would withdraw this

Prayer. When he made his request, he had still to listen to quite a number of speeches. I ask him whether, in view of what has been said from all quarters of the House, he will not reconsider the position and postpone this Order, perhaps for another six months, until more buses are on the road, or until some action can be taken such as has been suggested from the Floor of the House tonight. The Minister did say that this Order was putting us back to prewar conditions in so far as the transportation of passengers was concerned. But we are not back to prewar conditions. That is the point we are making. It is for that reason that I beseech the Minister to reconsider this Order, to give the public the consideration to which they are entitled and to help them to get home more quickly than will be possible if the Order is not annulled. We do not want to divide the House, but if he will not reconsider this Order I feel that, as we are not back in prewar conditions, we shall have no option but to divide as a protest.

Question put,
That the Standing Passengers (Amendment) Order, 1946 (S.R. &amp; O., 1946, No. 6951, dated 16th May, 1946, a copy of which was presented on 16th May, be annulled.

The House divided: Ayes, 17: Noes, 105.

Division No. 191.
AYES.
1.8 a.m.


Barlow, Sir J
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)
Thomas, J. P. L, (Hereford)


Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.
Neven-Spence, Sir B.
Wadsworth, G.


Challen, C.
Ronton, D.
Walker-Smith, D


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E
Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.



Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G.
Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES


Hope, Lord J.
Studholme, H. G.
Sir Wavell Wakefield and Mr. Boyd-Carpenter.


Mellor, Sir J.
Taylor, C S (Eastbourne)





NOES


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Driberg, T. E. N.
Jeger, G. (Winchester)


Attewell. H. C.
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Jones, D. T. (Hartlepoels)


Baird, Capt. J.
Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)
Keenan, W.


Barnes, Rt. Hon A. J.
Farthing, W. J.
Kenyon, C


Barton, C.
Fletcher, E. G. M (Islington, E.)
Key, C. W.


Bechervaise, A. E.
Foot, M. M.
Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr, E.


Bing, Capt. G. H. C
Ganley, Mrs. C. S.
Kinley, J


Binns, J.
Gibson, C. W.
Leslie J. R.


Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.
Glanville, J. E. (Consett)
Lewis, A W. J. (Upton)


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Gordon-Walker, P. C.
Lipton, Lt.-Cot. M.


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)
Mack, J. D.


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Griffiths, D. (Rather Valley)
McKay, J. (Walisend)


Burke, W. A.
Gunter, Capt. R. J.
McLeavy, F.


Champion, A. J.
Hale, Leslie
Middleton, Mrs. L.


Clitherow, Dr. R.
Hall, W. G. (Colne Valley)
Mitchison, Maj. G. R


Collindridge, F
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.
Monslow, W.


Collins, V. J.
Herbison, Miss M.
Morris, Lt -Col H. (Sheffield, C.)


Corlett, Dr. J.
Hewitson, Capt. M.
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)


Grossman. R H. S.
Holman, P.
Moyle, A.


Daines, P.
Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Neal, H. (Claycross)


Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Hoy, J.
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)


Davies, Harold (Leek)
Hubbard, T.
Noel-Buxton, Lady


Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Pearson, A.


Diamond, J.
Irving, W. J.
Perrins, W.




Platts-Mills, J. F. F.
Sheffington, A. M.
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Papplewell, E.
Snow, Capt. J. W.
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Pritt, D. N.
Soskice, Maj. Sir F.
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Ranger, J.
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)
Williams J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Rhodes, H.
Swingler, S.
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Roberts, A.
Symonds, Maj. A. L.
Wills, Mrs. E. A


Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Woodburn, A.


Royle, C.
Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Yates, V. f.


Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)
Zilliacus, K


Shurmer, P.
Warbey, W. N.



Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Watkins, T. E.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.


Simmons, C. J.
Weitzman, D.
Mr. Joseph Henderson and Mr. Hannan

Sir W. Wakefield: I beg to move,
That the Standing Passengers (Revocation) Order, 1946 (S.R. &amp; O., 1946, No. 696), dated 16th May, 1946 a copy of which was presented on 16th May, be annulled.
In principle this Order is the same as the one we have just discussed. It refers to trolley buses. I do not want to go over the ground again, and I move the Motion formally.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I beg to second the Motion.

Question put, and negatived.

ADJOURNMENT

Resolved: "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. R. J. Taylor.]

Adjourned accordingly at a Quarter past One o'Clock.